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G8MNY > TECH 16.11.23 10:36l 341 Lines 15728 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : 60417_GB7CIP
Read: GUEST
Subj: Scope Probes
Path: IZ3LSV<I0OJJ<GB7CIP
Sent: 231116/0834Z @:GB7CIP.#32.GBR.EURO #:60417 [Caterham Surrey GBR]
From: G8MNY@GB7CIP.#32.GBR.EURO
To : TECH@WW
By G8MNY (Update Jul 20)
(8 Bit ASCII graphics use code page 437 or 850, Terminal Font)
They come in a few standard forms..
1:1 COAX
A terminated teed coax is the only way get the highest bandwidth into your
scope. Simple nothing to adjust!
BNC T SCOPE INPUT LOAD
Input o)==============================ÂÄo)ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÂÄÄÄScope
75/50ohm >Ù 75/50ohm coax 75/50R ³ ÷25pF=== 1M Attenuators
TermÀÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÁÄÄÄ& Amp
The scope input capacitance has the minimum effect on the signal.
Only usable on DC-RF 75/50ohm circuits, e.g. DC-200MHz.
Voltage limited to scope input/termination load rating.
Able to see low signal levels, no added calibration errors.
1:1 TEST LEAD
These are straight screened wires like a coax, with just test clips on the ends
& BNC at the scope end. Simple nothing to adjust!
SCOPE INPUT LOAD
Input >Ä)================================o)ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÂÄÄÄScope
1M >ÄÙ 200pF of lead Capacitance ³ ÷25pF=== 1M Attenuators
225pF e.g. 75ohm coax ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÁÄÄÄ& Amp
Coax capacitance per foot is about 20/30pF for 75/50ohm.
The capacitance depends on coax impedance & lead length. Only usable on DC AF &
low Z circuits where the loading is not important e.g. DC-3MHz (just about OK
on terminated 75ohm video!)
Voltage limited to scope input.
Able to see low signal levels.
1:1 PROBE
These have one of the 2 sizes of standard probe systems. The spring hook can
changed to a long probe, just the tip or tip covers for small point or IC leg
work, or be adapted to a BNC plug.
Simple nothing to adjust!
PROBE PARTS
Spring Hook Þ Tip Probe Coax ___
_________/~~~~~~Þ _ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ||~~~~~~³Ä- ³~'Ä-¿___\\ ___Ú-Ä'~³ -ij Ã'~~³³
c_\________| Þ Ä´_³ || ³³³ ³ ³ ³ ³ ³³³ ³³ ³³
\______Þ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ||______³-Ä ³_.-ÄÙ~~~~ \\~~ÀÄ-._³ Ä-³___Ã.__³³
Þ .Ä.__ Screw or Screw or
ÚÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ³ ³ _³ Crimp Crimp BNC
Long Probe Þ ÃÄBNC_³ ³ ³ ³
_________/~~~~~~Þ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÙ ³_³ÄÄÙ
ÜÜ\________| Þ _ Ý Earth
\______Þ /~ ³Tip Þ Clip
Þ \_ ³Shroud Ý
~ Þ
Input Probe parts SCOPE INPUT LOAD
Load --ÂÄLÂLÄ)============================Ä33RÄo)ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÂÄÄÄScope
1M+ À´ÃÙ ³ 70pF Low capacity 3m leadÀÄÄÄÄÄij ÷25pF=== 1M Attenuators
100pF >ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ 300R DC, Z = 150R, (7pF/Ft) ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÁÄÄÄ& Amp
The load capacitance depends on lead length (1.2, 1.5, 2, or 3m) & the coax
type which here is a very fine single strand core polly foam insulated high
impedance type. There is often a tweak on the probe (tuned circuit + L shown &
a series scope R) to improve HF & pulse performance.
Only usable on DC AF & low Z circuits where the loading is not important.
e.g. DC up to 6-10MHz on 75ohm terminated systems.
Voltage limited by probe & scope. Able to see low signal levels.
10:1 TRIMMED PROBE
These are the most common probe, with in built attenuator reducing input load.
Must be calibrated before use on that scope's input!
Not able to see very low signal levels.
PROBE PARTS
Spring Hook Þ Tip Probe Coax ___
_________/~~~~~~Þ _ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ||~~~~~~~³Ä- ³~'Ä-¿___\\ ___Ú-Ä'~³ -ij Ã'~~³³
c_\________| Þ Ä´_³ || 0 Adj³³³ ³ ³ ³ ³ ³³³ ³³ ³³
\______Þ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ||_______³-Ä ³_.-ÄÙ~~~~ \\~~ÀÄ-._³ Ä-³___Ã.__³³
Þ
Input Probe parts
Load ڴÿC Adj * SCOPE INPUT LOAD
10Mê+ Ä47RÄLÁ9MÁ)============================o)ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÂÄÄÄScope
15pF >ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ 70pF Low capacity 3m lead ³ ÷25pF=== 1M Attenuators
Z = 150R ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÁÄÄÄ& Amp
The accurate series 9M gives the 10:1 DC calibration with the scope input R.
The trimmer C in the probe has to be exactly 1/9 of the total capacitance of
the scope & lead, then the probe's frequency & phase (pulse) response will be
flat. So the probe is designed for a particular lead! Note the more complex
tiny probe components are to improve bandwidth & pulse responce.
Usable DC-60MHz (3.5nS rise time). Voltage limited by probe design/10x scope
input. Some older larger 10:1 probes (e.g. Tektronix) use an adjustable moving
capacitance tube & have a much higher rated voltage & are useful for mains &
SMPS & line output work, where the peak pulse voltages can be over 1kV @ 50kHz,
which most of the smaller probes CAN NOT safely handle! See the rating curve
for your probe...
Peak Volts
700´
600´ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ Typical Probe Derating Curve
500´ Þ
400´ Ý This means that you can't scope HF Tx aerial!
300´ \
200´ 'ú.,__
100´ ~~''ÄÄÄ----....,,_______
0ÅÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÂÄÄ>Hz
0 50k 100k 200k 500k 1M 2M 5M 10M
1:1/10:1 SWITCHED PROBE
These are also common, with a built in switched attenuator reducing input
loading on 10:1. & the 1:1 option for seeing small signals, but note the
loading changes when switching.
On 10:1 mode, it must be calibrated before use on that scope's input!
PROBE PARTS
Spring Hook Þ Tip Probe Adj SW Coax ___
_________/~~~~~~Þ _ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ||~~~~~~~~³Ä- ³~'Ä-¿___\\ ___Ú-Ä'~³ -ij Ã'~~³³
c_\________| Þ Ä´_³ || 0 _Ü ³³³ ³ ³ ³ ³ ³³³ ³³ ³³
\______Þ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ||________³-Ä ³_.-ÄÙ~~~~ \\~~ÀÄ-._³ Ä-³___Ã.__³³
Þ 1:1:10
Input Probe parts
Load Ú´ÃÄ¿C Adj * SCOPE INPUT LOAD
10Mê+ Ä47RÅ9MÄÅ)============================o)ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÂÄÄÄScope
15pF ³_\_³³ 55pF Low capacity 2m lead ³ ÷25pF=== 1M Attenuators
or 1M >ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ Z = 150R ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÁÄÄÄ& Amp
+80pF
Usable up to 6-10MHz @ 1:1, & 60MHz @ 10:1. Voltage limited by probe & switch
design/10x scope input or scope input @ 1:1. Due to the added switch & risk to
the scope I would not use this type on any high voltage like mains or SMPSU
testing!
10:1 SCOPE END TRIMMED
These are the less common, with a fixed probe capacitor, the trimmer is put at
the scope end. As it is the scope input capacitance that varies scope input to
scope input, this approach lets the probe maker better match the components
(e.g. series Ls & Rs etc) to get a better frequency/pulse response, however the
probe tip capacitance is a little bit higher!
Must be calibrated before use on that scope's input!
Not able to see very low signal levels.
PROBE PARTS
Spring Hook Þ Tip Probe Coax ÚÄÄÄÄÄ¿ BNC
_________/~~~~~~Þ _ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ||~~~~~~³Ä- ³~'Ä-¿___\\ ___Ú-Ä'~³ -ij Ã'~~³³
c_\________| Þ Ä´_³ || ³³³ ³ ³ ³ ³ ³³³ 0 ³³ ³³
\______Þ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ||______³-Ä ³_.-ÄÙ~~~~ \\~~ÀÄ-._³ Ä-³ Adj Ã.__³³
Þ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÙ
Input Probe parts
Load ڴÿFixed C SCOPE INPUT
10Mê+ Ä47RÁ9MÁ)=============================ÂÄÄo)ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÂÄÄÄScope
15pF >ÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ 70pF Low capacity 3m lead ÀĴô ÷25pF=== 1M Attenuator
Z = 150ê *TrimmerÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÁÄÄÄ& Amp
The accurate series 9Mê gives the 10:1 DC calibration with the scope input R.
The fixed C in the probe has to be exactly 1/9 of the total input capacitance &
the scope end *trimmer is adjusted for this.
Usable DC-100MHz where the loading is not important. Voltage limited to by
probe design/10x scope input, this may be higher than the probe end trimmer
type.
100:1 TRIMMED PROBE
Same as above but are less common, usualy scope end trimmed allowing for high
voltage with the larger in built attenuator reducing input loading by 100,
useful on sensitive large siganl DC or where higher capacity probe can't be
used, if there is enough signal!
No good for low signal levels!
Input Probe parts
Load Ú´ÃÄ¿Fixed C SCOPE INPUT LOAD
100Mê Ä47RÁ99MÁ)==============================ÂÄo)ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÂÄÄÄScope
+4pF >ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ 70pF Low capacity 3m lead === ³ ÷25pF=== 1M Attenuators
Z = 150R TrimÀÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÁÄÄÄ& Amp
The accurate series 99M gives the 100:1 DC calibration with the scope input R.
The high voltage C in the probe has to be exactly 1/99 of the total input
capacitance for the probe to be flat.
Usable DC-60MHz. Voltage limited to by probe design/100x scope input e.g. 1.5kV
Even so some are not rated for SMPSU work see derating curve above, where the
peak spike voltages may be 1kV @ 50kHz!
10:1 SCOPE & PROBE TRIMMED
These are far less common, with a trimmer capacitor & presets. They give the
best performance & must be calibrated before use on that scope's input!
Not able to see very low signal levels.
PROBE PARTS
Spring Hook Þ Tip Probe Coax ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ BNC
________/~~~~~~Þ _ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄ||~~~~~~³Ä- ³~'Ä-¿__\\ __Ú-Ä'~³ -ij Ã'~~³³
c_\_______| Þ Ä´_³ || 0 Adj³³³ ³ ³ ³ ³ ³³³ 0 0 0 ³³ ³³
\______Þ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄ||______³-Ä ³_.-ÄÙ~~~ \\~ÀÄ-._³ Ä-³ Adj Ã.__³³
Þ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ
Input Probe parts 3 HF
Load ڴÿC trimmer 1kHz preset Rs SCOPE INPUT
10Mê+ Ä47RÁ9MÁ)============================ÄR1ÂÄÄÄÄÄo)ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÂÄÄÄScope
16pF >ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ 35pF Low capacity 1.5m lead ÃR2Ä´ÃÄ´ ÷25pF=== 1M Attenuator
Z = 150R R3 ³ ³ ³ & Amp
ÃÄLÄ´ÃÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÁÄÄÄ
À47RÙ
Usable DC-300MHz where the loading is not important. Voltage limited to by
probe design/10x scope input. The probe trimmer affects 1kHz & the 3 scope end
presets all affect different HF frequencies allowing good calibration on square
wave harmonics to over 300MHz & a pulse rise time of 1.4nS.
AP BNCs
This a surrounding locking ___ ±±±±
pin system that tells the -ij Ã'~~³³
scope you have a 1:10 probe ³³³ ³³ ³³BNC
fitted, for on screen Ä-³___Ã.__³³
calibration information etc. ±±±±ÜÜPIN
PROBE PARTS INTERCHANGEABILITY
Various makers often use similar parts, but not always! e.g. Tip threads can be
different, & also the tip length & diameter making it incompatible to some
makes of probes hooks.
Screw on leads are also made in slightly different ways & may no be compatible!
CALIBRATING A SCOPE PROBE *
Connect the probe to the scope 1kHz square wave calibrator & set the input,
trigger & timebase range to show a large square wave. Then using the insulated
tool provided adjust the trimmer...
TO LITTLE HF CORRECT TO MUCH HF
____ _ ______ __ ³`\.___
,/' ³ ,/' | | | | | | | = faint
| | | | | | | | | | Verticals
| | | | | | | | |
| `\.___³ | |______| | | ___|
³./'
With a 2 (or more) trimmer probe a higher frequency test square wave of 1MHz
will be needed for the scope end trimmer(s). Adjust the trimmers in much the
same way, endeavouring to get the best square "corner pulse" shape possible.
FAULTY SCOPE ATTENUATOR
If the wave shape changes (other than height) as the scope input attenuator is
changed, then the scope attenuator needs recalibrating, as the input capacity
(& hence the probe response) should not change if the scope is set up OK!
PROBE FAILURE
Tips: These can brake the screw in tip off as there is huge leverage with the
whole probe on the end, but you can get spares with probes.
Hooks: The hook sleeve will melt if left on components while soldering! The
hooks also break, (made of wire or metal strip) due to the leverage factor.
_ _________________________ÚÄÄÄÄ¿
(/_/ |\\Spring\\\|±³ ³ -=Probe
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ÀÄÄÄÄÙ Top
Solder
I have made long lasting replacement hooked strips from scrap junior hacksaw
blades cut into strips & filed out the hook shape with a needle file. A good
solder (try ally solder) & key filing are needed to attached the blade metal!
Body: These fail due to broken internal wires to the socket, & also fractured
PCB. The assembly can be difficult to take apart. but all the plastic covers
are push fit. A broken multiplying R is usually fatal, unless you want a 1:1
probe! Be careful not to lose the red tweaker cover when sliding the hand cover
off. Switched versions need extra care!
Plastic covered _ Handle pulls off >
metal probe tube ³ ÀÄÄÄ----..,..
Screw _______________ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ __ Tight push fit socket
on tip -<³- [ heatshrink covered PCB -[±[þ
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ~~\Lead connector screw thread
Earth contact ring/³_ÚÄÄÄ''''~~~~~
^ Keyway
N.B. Some probes use a metal plated plastic body, so are not metal at all!
FAULTING LEADS
Broken intermittent inner of very thin (hair gauge) lose single core as it will
not stretch, or poor the push on crimped outer connectors. these have just a
SB TECH @ WW
Scope RF Trick
By G8MNY (Updated Apr 11)
(8 Bit ASCII graphics use code page 437 or 850, Terminal Font)
A few years ago at my local club we had demonstrated an impossible wooden
transformer, that did all its should do!
I recently got a 100MHz scope going & using it for demonstrations, I found
quite a convincing RF trick, that even experienced hams are initially fooled
by.
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³RF SIGNAL³ ³SCOPE³ Display ³/~\ ³
³GENERATORÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄ´ ³ ³ \_/³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ BNCÀÄÄÄÄÄÙ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ
T
Connecting this arrangement, no one is surprised the scope displays a sine
wave. But adding a short length of coax teed to the scope...
TEED
COAX
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ³ ÚÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³RF SIGNAL³ ³ ³SCOPE³ Display ³______³
³GENERATORÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄ´ ³ ³ ³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ BNCÀÄÄÄÄÄÙ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ
T
Making the teed coax quite a short length & the pure OSC frequency set to make
that an electrical 1/4 wave. The scope displays nothing! Many wrongly think the
teed coax must be a DC short!
But shorting the end of the coax out, the sine wave magically reappears!
SHORTED
COAX
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ³ ÚÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³RF SIGNAL³ ³ ³SCOPE³ Display ³/~\ ³
³GENERATORÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄ´ ³ ³ \_/³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ BNCÀÄÄÄÄÄÙ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ
T
This is the opposite to intuition & many are confused as to what is going on.
Only when the frequency of around 70MHz (for my short coax) is noted, does the
penny drop!
USES
This of course is a very usefull method of measuring the velocity factor of a
cable (0.6 to 0.8 the speed of light) as well as the losses. Only low a loss
cable will produce a good nul, & of course a good sine wave oscillator!
See my Tech bul on "Tuned Circuit Scope Demo", "Spectrum Harmonic Demo circuit"
"Oscilloscopes".
Why Don't U send an interesting bul?
73 De John, G8MNY @ GB7CIP
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