| |
CX2SA > SATDIG 15.06.09 05:41l 1040 Lines 43451 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : 42768-CX2SA
Read: GUEST
Subj: AMSAT-BB-digest V4 280
Path: IZ3LSV<IK2XDE<DB0RES<ON0AR<HS1LMV<CX2SA
Sent: 090615/0331Z @:CX2SA.LAV.URY.SA #:42768 [Minas] FBB7.00e $:42768-CX2SA
From: CX2SA@CX2SA.LAV.URY.SA
To : SATDIG@WW
Send AMSAT-BB mailing list submissions to
amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
amsat-bb-request@xxxxx.xxx
You can reach the person managing the list at
amsat-bb-owner@xxxxx.xxx
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of AMSAT-BB digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Help - no antennas allowed (Eric Knaps, ON4HF)
2. Re: equal time (Adrian Engele)
3. Re: equal time (n3tl@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
4. Re: IC-910H low audio problem. (Kostas Ioannidis)
5. Re: Help - no antennas allowed (Larry Gerhardstein)
6. My apologies (n3tl@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
7. Re: equal time (Sebastian)
8. Re: equal time (Adrian Engele)
9. Re: equal time (n3tl@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:44:46 +0200
From: "Eric Knaps, ON4HF" <on4hf@xxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Help - no antennas allowed
To: amsat <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <4A35451E.5070102@xxxxxxx.xx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hello John,
DH5MK is working satellites with his antennas indoor.
Here's his website with more info.
http://www.dh5mk.de/
I've worked him a few times and he is strong on the birds.
Good luck!
Eric.
Amateur radio station ON4HF
Eric Knaps
Waterstraat 30
B-3980 Tessenderlo
Belgium
Tel. +32472985876 (mobile)
http://www.on4hf.be
john heath schreef:
> Hi Satelliters,
>
> Moving QTH soon and expect to be in an area where there are no external
antennas permitted.
>
> Does anyone on the list have actual experience of working satellites with
antennas mounted inside the roofspace?
> I would be very interested to hear of your experiences and what type of
antennas work best.
>
> 73 John G7HIA
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:03:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adrian Engele <aa5uk@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: equal time
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <306078.84735.qm@xxxxxxxx.xxxx.xxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
As many of you know I operated as ZF2AE from EK99 back in late March and early
April during my vacation from Grand Cayman and Little Cayman. I received
numerous direct requests to have a sked as EK99 was needed for their VUCC
awards. I made a big effort to meet all these requests received prior or
during that trip and in most instances I was successful. As a portable, I
worked AO-51 and SO-50 with just an Arrow Antenna with an ARR preamp and 5W
with my VX7R. I also worked other stations on AO-7, FO-29 and VU52 using the
same setup but with my FT857D with 10 Watts instead. Let me tell you setting
up as a portable station to work the linear birds is time consuming and
required a big effort everytime. I was on vacation and Hamradio was a
secondary activity.
After my return, I went through my recordings it was clear that there were
many missed opportunities to work certain stations for their requested skeds .
Why was this? In most cases, it came down to stations both domestic and
international that are NOT LISTENING or not leaving enough space between
calls. Also it was clear these same stations were calling the same stations
day in and day out. What is the sport in this, working the same stations and
the same grids over and over again; especially when a DXpedition is ongoing
and others need to work that grid. I had numerous passes where I could not get
once into an FM satellite during a planned sked. In some cases, I only managed
one or two contacts. It was frustrating to say the least. Out of the 45+
passes I completed during my trip there was only one satellite pass that was
disciplined, operators listened, called in order and over 15 contacts were
worked in sequence with zero interference and many happy
operators.
I encourage operators with deluxe satellite stations running power with full
computer and rotation tracking to let more modest stations have their fair
share of opportunities to get into the satellites. You may disagree with this
concept, but I would like to remind the readers the FCC mandates that minimum
power should be used to make at all times in to establish a contact.
During my trip and upon my return, I received countless emails and QSL cards
thanking me for activating a new country and a new grid. In the end, that was
the biggest satisfaction of the whole DXpedition giving out a new one!
73,
Adrian
AA5UK
ZF2AE & ZF2AE/ZF8
________________________________
From: Thomas McGrane <n2oeq@xxxxxx.xxx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 8:04:40 AM
Subject: [amsat-bb] equal time
To the regular repetitive users of Echo
Please refrain from hogging the satellite every pass for multiple contacts.
I cant get into the satellite anymore and I am not going to use the amplifier
to fight everyone.
Sorry if you are offended but you need to be told.
My support of amsat is directly proportional to my ability to use the
satellite.
pat
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:45:09 +0000
From: n3tl@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: equal time
To: Adrian Engele <aa5uk@xxxxx.xxx>, amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID:
<061420092245.12814.4A357D74000CF40A0000320E22218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C
04040A0DBF049BCC02@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Adrian and all,
I didn't get to work you on your trip, although I listened. Never heard you
from here in EM84. Thank you for going to the trouble of enabling operations
on both the FM and CW/SSB satellites. I appreciate it, and it's obvious that
others do from your comments.
To amplify (yes, pun intended ... I couldn't help myself!) your reference to
using the lowest power level necessary to establish communications, I think it
appropriate to note that, per Drew's (KO4MA) post to the BB earlier this week,
AO-51 recently has been operating with twice the power of AO-27 and four times
the power of SO-50. Yes, AO-51 has been transmitting one full watt rf out. So,
at least half of every satellite contact we make is QRP and, more often than
not, milliwatt QRP.
All of that being said ... I have not and will not ask for any quarter on the
satellites from any operator. I spent my first nine years as a licensed
amateur working mostly QRP on HF. I chose to do that. I choose to take a
similar approach to operating the satellites. Therein lies the sport for me
... personally. I don't suggest it's right for anyone else, but I enjoy the
heck out of it.
Adrian ... you ask what the sport is in working the same stations in the same
grids over and over. In response, I suggest to you that working the FM
satellites (or the linear satellites, for that matter) isn't about a
competitive, sporting endeavor to everyone. Some guys don't chase grids and
couldn't care less about them. I applied for Satellite VUCC only because I
could do so exclusively with handheld contacts - two-way QRP, for sure. I
applied for AMSAT's Satellite Communications Achievement Award because I could
do so exclusively with contacts that not only were handheld, but all made
running 50 mW out here on my VX-7R on the same set of two Duracells. At no
time did I ever expect or ask for any quarter. I paid my money for the station
I chose to operate, and I continue to takes my chances, as they say.
I suspect that every operator has a very personal set of reasons and
motivations for working the satellites. None of those reasons and motivations
are less valid than anyone else's. I have operated portable from several
different grids, and I drove over to South Carolina a couple months ago
because someone needed it for their Satellite WAS. Activating those
grids/states was my reason for being at some of the places I've operated from.
At no time did I think my operation should take precedence over any other
contacts during a given pass. I either called somebody or threw out my call as
portable and the state or grid I was working from. Those who needed or wanted
that spot confirmed called me. Those who didn't, didn't.
Chasing grids, states and/or DX entities aren't the reason(s) we have amateur
satellites in orbit. They aren't the reason(s) we have the amateur radio
service. They can be fun operating activities, but not every licensed amateur
who enjoys working the satellites shares that sentiment.
73 to all,
Tim - N3TL
-------------- Original message from Adrian Engele <aa5uk@xxxxx.xxx>: --------
------
As many of you know I operated as ZF2AE from EK99 back in late March and early
April during my vacation from Grand Cayman and Little Cayman. I received
numerous direct requests to have a sked as EK99 was needed for their VUCC
awards. I made a big effort to meet all these requests received prior or
during that trip and in most instances I was successful. As a portable, I
worked AO-51 and SO-50 with just an Arrow Antenna with an ARR preamp and 5W
with my VX7R. I also worked other stations on AO-7, FO-29 and VU52 using the
same setup but with my FT857D with 10 Watts instead. Let me tell you setting
up as a portable station to work the linear birds is time consuming and
required a big effort
> everytime. I was on vacation and Hamradio was a secondary activity.
> After my return, I went through my recordings it was clear that there were
many missed opportunities to work certain stations for their requested skeds .
Why was this? In most cases, it came down to stations both domestic and
> international that are NOT LISTENING or not leaving enough space between
calls.
> Also it was clear these same stations were calling the same stations day in
and
> day out. What is the sport in this, working the same stations and the same
grids
> over and over again; especially when a DXpedition is ongoing and others need
to
> work that grid. I had numerous passes where I could not get once into an FM
> satellite during a planned sked. In some cases, I only managed one or two
> contacts. It was frustrating to say the least. Out of the 45+ passes I
completed
> during my trip there was only one satellite pass that was disciplined,
operators
> listened, called in order and over 15 contacts were worked in sequence with
zero
> interference and many happy
> operators.
>
> I encourage operators with deluxe satellite stations running power with full
> computer and rotation tracking to let more modest stations have their fair
share
> of opportunities to get into the satellites. You may disagree with this
concept,
> but I would like to remind the readers the FCC mandates that minimum power
> should be used to make at all times in to establish a contact.
>
> During my trip and upon my return, I received countless emails and QSL cards
> thanking me for activating a new country and a new grid. In the end, that
was
> the biggest satisfaction of the whole DXpedition giving out a new one!
>
> 73,
>
> Adrian
> AA5UK
> ZF2AE & ZF2AE/ZF8
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Thomas McGrane
> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 8:04:40 AM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] equal time
>
> To the regular repetitive users of Echo
>
> Please refrain from hogging the satellite every pass for multiple contacts.
>
> I cant get into the satellite anymore and I am not going to use the
amplifier to
> fight everyone.
>
> Sorry if you are offended but you need to be told.
>
> My support of amsat is directly proportional to my ability to use the
satellite.
>
> pat
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 01:53:00 +0300
From: Kostas Ioannidis <kostas.ioannidis@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: IC-910H low audio problem.
To: AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID:
<6cd5903a0906141553s1f979cbao792e0e6c498679da@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Thank you all for your answers, they were very helpfull. I think I
will stay with my current configuration (using the headphones output).
73 de SW1IXP, Kostas Ioannidis
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:01:46 -0600
From: Larry Gerhardstein <larryg@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Help - no antennas allowed
To: "john heath" <g7hia@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>, "amsat" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <004c01c9ed4c$7a18e8c0$0200a8c0@xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
John,
I feel your pain.
Five years ago I had the same problem. Newer developments near where we
lived at the time had CC&Rs which banned all types of overhead antennas
except for commercial satellite TV. We about had one development talked
into letting me erect a simple nearly hidden antenna, but then their
lawyer said "no." Their sales people could not believe that I then
backed out of the deal.
So two years ago, we relocated to Montana, big sky country, and a
subdivision where the covenant contains no bans on antennas. A
contractor had just finished building a very nice speculation home and
we bought it along with the 5 acres it sits on. Because of mountains
all around, the propagation angles are not perfect, but its good enough.
I'm now in the process of building my satellite station. The M2's are
going up on a 33 ft UStower crank up. It needs to be that high to clear
my buildings and have a clear shot at all horizons. I'll also use the
tower to hang some wires for h.f. bands.
Not only no covenant restrictions on antennas, no local zoning
ordinances against them either. It's great; just ask any of the many
who have received my QSL card from DN27, a rare grid in a rare state.
73 and good luck with concealing your antennas.
Larry, W7IN
Plains, Montana
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:19:23 +0000
From: n3tl@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] My apologies
To: AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID:
<061520090019.26983.4A35938B000303070000696722218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C
04040A0DBF049BCC02@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
Hey everyone,
I need to stop relying on my memory.
Someone pointed out that I had, indeed, worked Adrian while he was operating
as ZF2AE. My log reflects that we worked on AO-51 and SO-50 while he was
there.
My apologies to all for that mistake in my eariler response to Adrian's post.
I didn't recall working him when I wrote that.
73 to all,
Tim - N3TL
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:31:24 -0400
From: Sebastian <w4as@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: equal time
To: AMSAT BB <AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <A79EBDEB-2C9C-4F02-923D-1A5C5D29DB38@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Adrian, first I would like to thank you for taking the time to operate
from a DX location, in order to give others a chance to work you!
Next, I think because of the things you have said, and the recent
issue with the K5D operation, we have learned that attempting to put
up a rare country on an FM satellite just doesn't work out. There are
simply too many stations on AO-51. Why - because it's easy to do.
SO-50 because of the timer and PL tones, is more difficult. A lot of
hams don't realize that FO-29 is back in service, let alone AO-27; and
AO-27 is only on for about half the pass on the USA. AO-16 has been
off the air for months, and hopefully we will get it back sometime.
The SSB birds are more difficult since it requires additional
equipment, as opposed to an HT or two and a small handheld antenna
(with the exception of Tim who could probably work Japan on AO-51 even
though it's not in his footprint!) Tim knows I'm joking.
AO-51 is over used. And yes there are a lot of people who may not
necessarily run high power on there, but have large antennas of which
I am one of. I won't apologize for having outdoor directional high
gain antennas controlled by an LVB tracker. My antennas are from the
days of AO-10 & AO-13, and I don't have the ability to change to RH,
LH circular polarization; I use axial polarization. Yes there are
some who are using handheld antennas with roughly the same amount of
power that I am; but who's going to be heard (even with my 115 feet of
LMR400)? Then there are those who believe it's a trivial task to
setup a full duplex HT with a hand held antenna and be heard. It's
not easy. I've tried it, and have concluded that it takes a lot of
time to learn the 'tricks of the trade'. At least once a week, I hear
a newcomer on one of the birds calling CQ. And people come back to
them, but that newcomer can't hear them, because they aren't aware of
doppler, etc.
Then there are some who use 'high' power, I would say 50+ watts, but
perhaps they need that power because they are using vertical antennas
or eggbeaters, with 150 feet of RG-58 Radio Shack coax. And there are
some who either use high power, or have defective rigs (or both), and
make it difficult for others to hear due to their spurious emissions
because they want to have more contacts than anyone else.
So what's the answer. Those who aren't active on the birds because
they are fed up will say we need a HEO.
Those that are active on the birds don't have to say anything. They
already know the problem.
I would like for someone to explain to me why they disagree that what
we really need are more LEOs.
73 de W4AS
Sebastian
On Jun 14, 2009, at 6:03 PM, Adrian Engele wrote:
> As many of you know I operated as ZF2AE from EK99 back in late March
> and early April during my vacation from Grand Cayman and Little
> Cayman. I received numerous direct requests to have a sked as EK99
> was needed for their VUCC awards. I made a big effort to meet all
> these requests received prior or during that trip and in most
> instances I was successful. As a portable, I worked AO-51 and SO-50
> with just an Arrow Antenna with an ARR preamp and 5W with my VX7R. I
> also worked other stations on AO-7, FO-29 and VU52 using the same
> setup but with my FT857D with 10 Watts instead. Let me tell you
> setting up as a portable station to work the linear birds is time
> consuming and required a big effort everytime. I was on vacation and
> Hamradio was a secondary activity.
>
> After my return, I went through my recordings it was clear that
> there were many missed opportunities to work certain stations for
> their requested skeds . Why was this? In most cases, it came down to
> stations both domestic and international that are NOT LISTENING or
> not leaving enough space between calls. Also it was clear these same
> stations were calling the same stations day in and day out. What is
> the sport in this, working the same stations and the same grids over
> and over again; especially when a DXpedition is ongoing and others
> need to work that grid. I had numerous passes where I could not get
> once into an FM satellite during a planned sked. In some cases, I
> only managed one or two contacts. It was frustrating to say the
> least. Out of the 45+ passes I completed during my trip there was
> only one satellite pass that was disciplined, operators listened,
> called in order and over 15 contacts were worked in sequence with
> zero interference and many happy
> operators.
>
> I encourage operators with deluxe satellite stations running power
> with full computer and rotation tracking to let more modest stations
> have their fair share of opportunities to get into the satellites.
> You may disagree with this concept, but I would like to remind the
> readers the FCC mandates that minimum power should be used to make
> at all times in to establish a contact.
>
> During my trip and upon my return, I received countless emails and
> QSL cards thanking me for activating a new country and a new grid.
> In the end, that was the biggest satisfaction of the whole
> DXpedition giving out a new one!
>
> 73,
>
> Adrian
> AA5UK
> ZF2AE & ZF2AE/ZF8
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:54:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adrian Engele <aa5uk@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: equal time
To: AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <682020.23434.qm@xxxxxxxx.xxxx.xxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Tim, N3TL, we worked several times during my trip.( I just saw your post.... I
have too have amnesia sometimes ;)I have your QSL cards and you are in my Log
from my Trip. I agree with most of what you said but I think you
misinterpreted my use of the word "sport". I meant it in the context of
working the same stations over and over again, from a fixed station to another
fixed station. A satellite in the end it is just a repeater with the added
limit of a small working window and the usual Doppler shift. Perhaps we should
call it the "art" instead of "sport" of working a satellite. I know you have
perfected it very well and I have enjoyed reading many of your posts as I am
locationally challenged at home living in an apartment in Chicago. Not
conducive to working the birds unfortunately....
I checked QRZ.com and many of the stations I worked had similar setups to
mine. Pretty much an HT and small antenna: Arrow or Elk. Also it was never my
intent to hog any of the satellites for the duration of my operations. That
would not be the spirit of a "True Satelliteer!" (a quote from WB2OQQ) There
were many stations who needed EK99 but never managed to get through. I just
wanted to make a few stations happy for a new one. I had the option of going
full power but I chose not to on the FM birds. Perhaps I should next time. I
am already looking forward to my vacation next year, planned from Hawaii as of
now. Now that is going to an operational challenge.
Sebastian, W4AS, thanks for your kind words and the opportunity to work you
to. I sure wish I had your setup. I live in an apartment in Chicago so few
opportunities to operate from a fixed location. I agree K5D could have done a
better job in their satellite operations. At minimum a simple rotor and even a
fixed antenna at 15 degrees with a two radios on all the current satellites
would have worked better and would have probably provided more operators the
chance to work K5D. A fulll blown setup with an AZ/EL rotor and doppler
tracking would have been the perfect setup considering all the other equipment
that was brought to the K5D DXpedition. It would be interesting to understand
what planning was done for satellites operations for K5D. I won't speculate.
FM satellites may not be the ideal satellites for a DXPedition but not
everybody has the gear to work the linear brids. I think it comes down to the
DX operator. FM satellites can be worked on a
DXpedition. I had some pile ups on numerous passes and I was able to work
many stations with some discipline and good ears. It takes an operator with
contesting experience to work a pile up and maintain order. Still it is very
challenging especially on such operations as K5D. Not sure what to do in the
future.
I agree with Tim, everybody has their own motivation on the birds. Some go
after VUCC, some like to ragchew, some like to say good morning or good day to
their friend a few states over, some like to chase DX, some to work new or a
new rare gris, some like to be DX or be a in new grid. What ever the
motivation it is all about having fun with our hobby, but it is also about
operational excellence. Sebastian mentioned the many new users who get on the
birds and don't operate correctly. It is up to all of us to be their elmers
online and offline and make the new operators > good operators and good
operators> better operators if our hobby is to survive.
Thank you both for your kind and spirited opinions. Tim, I wish I could work
you from my house in Spain from EA6 in JM09tb when I am there in October.
Seems AO7 is just out of reach from the predictions I ran. Sebastian, I agree
if there is a person who could work Japan on AO-51 it would be Tim, which I
know is physically impossible. I appreciate all Tim has done and is doing for
the hobby and the AMSAT community!
Let's keep having fun and keep our arms open to new operators!
73,
;) Adrian
AA5UK
ZF2AE & ZF2AE/ZF8
________________________________
From: Sebastian <w4as@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>.
To: Adrian Engele <aa5uk@xxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 6:38:34 PM
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: equal time
Adrian, first I would like to thank you for taking the time to operate from a
DX location, in order to give others a chance to work you!
Next, I think because of the things you have said, and the recent issue with
the K5D operation, we have learned that attempting to put up a rare country on
an FM satellite just doesn't work out. There are simply too many stations on
AO-51. Why - because it's easy to do. SO-50 because of the timer and PL
tones, is more difficult. A lot of hams don't realize that FO-29 is back in
service, let alone AO-27; and AO-27 is only on for about half the pass on the
USA. AO-16 has been off the air for months, and hopefully we will get it back
sometime. The SSB birds are more difficult since it requires additional
equipment, as opposed to an HT or two and a small handheld antenna (with the
exception of Tim who could probably work Japan on AO-51 even though it's not
in his footprint!) Tim knows I'm joking.
AO-51 is over used. And yes there are a lot of people who may not necessarily
run high power on there, but have large antennas of which I am one of. I
won't apologize for having outdoor directional high gain antennas controlled
by an LVB tracker. My antennas are from the days of AO-10 & AO-13, and I
don't have the ability to change to RH, LH circular polarization; I use axial
polarization. Yes there are some who are using handheld antennas with roughly
the same amount of power that I am; but who's going to be heard (even with my
115 feet of LMR400)? Then there are those who believe it's a trivial task to
setup a full duplex HT with a hand held antenna and be heard. It's not easy.
I've tried it, and have concluded that it takes a lot of time to learn the
'tricks of the trade'. At least once a week, I hear a newcomer on one of the
birds calling CQ. And people come back to them, but that newcomer can't hear
them, because they aren't aware of
doppler, etc.
Then there are some who use 'high' power, I would say 50+ watts, but perhaps
they need that power because they are using vertical antennas or eggbeaters,
with 150 feet of RG-58 Radio Shack coax. And there are some who either use
high power, or have defective rigs (or both), and make it difficult for others
to hear due to their spurious emissions because they want to have more
contacts than anyone else.
So what's the answer. Those who aren't active on the birds because they are
fed up will say we need a HEO.
Those that are active on the birds don't have to say anything. They already
know the problem.
I would like for someone to explain to me why they disagree that what we
really need are more LEOs.
73 de W4AS
Sebastian
On Jun 14, 2009, at 6:03 PM, Adrian Engele wrote:
> As many of you know I operated as ZF2AE from EK99 back in late March and
early April during my vacation from Grand Cayman and Little Cayman. I received
numerous direct requests to have a sked as EK99 was needed for their VUCC
awards. I made a big effort to meet all these requests received prior or
during that trip and in most instances I was successful. As a portable, I
worked AO-51 and SO-50 with just an Arrow Antenna with an ARR preamp and 5W
with my VX7R. I also worked other stations on AO-7, FO-29 and VU52 using the
same setup but with my FT857D with 10 Watts instead. Let me tell you setting
up as a portable station to work the linear birds is time consuming and
required a big effort everytime. I was on vacation and Hamradio was a
secondary activity.
>
> After my return, I went through my recordings it was clear that there were
many missed opportunities to work certain stations for their requested skeds .
Why was this? In most cases, it came down to stations both domestic and
international that are NOT LISTENING or not leaving enough space between
calls. Also it was clear these same stations were calling the same stations
day in and day out. What is the sport in this, working the same stations and
the same grids over and over again; especially when a DXpedition is ongoing
and others need to work that grid. I had numerous passes where I could not get
once into an FM satellite during a planned sked. In some cases, I only managed
one or two contacts. It was frustrating to say the least. Out of the 45+
passes I completed during my trip there was only one satellite pass that was
disciplined, operators listened, called in order and over 15 contacts were
worked in sequence with zero interference and many
happy
> operators.
>
> I encourage operators with deluxe satellite stations running power with full
computer and rotation tracking to let more modest stations have their fair
share of opportunities to get into the satellites. You may disagree with this
concept, but I would like to remind the readers the FCC mandates that minimum
power should be used to make at all times in to establish a contact.
>
> During my trip and upon my return, I received countless emails and QSL cards
thanking me for activating a new country and a new grid. In the end, that was
the biggest satisfaction of the whole DXpedition giving out a new one!
>
> 73,
>
> Adrian
> AA5UK
> ZF2AE & ZF2AE/ZF8
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 03:17:37 +0000
From: n3tl@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: equal time
To: Adrian Engele <aa5uk@xxxxx.xxx>, AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID:
<061520090317.21118.4A35BD50000DFF520000527E22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C
04040A0DBF049BCC02@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Thanks Adrian.
JM09 probably isn't possible, which is a shame. But maybe we should try anyway
... hihi.
Sebastian - you shouldn't HAVE to apologize for your station to anyone. That,
in many fewer words, was part of what I intended to say.
As for the newcomers - and I don't mean to offend anyone here - but I didn't
have an in-person Elmer this time last year when I was just getting into
things. Google directed me to the AMSAT site, to the tutorial K6LCS has posted
on his site, to the AO-51 operator's guide N1WBV mentioned. Collectively, they
"Elmered" me while I was waiting for my Arrow antenna to arrive. Patrick,
WD9EWK, also has done a wonderful PDF on operating the FM LEO satellites. I'll
gladly send it to anyone who wants to drop me a note off the BB.
My point here is that, without discounting the role I hope all of us play in
helping newcomers straighten their learning curves as much as possible, it's
incumbent upon those newcomers to make the effort to learn about satellite
operating, too. Before I ever tried pointing the Arrow at the sky, I
understood that I shouldn't key the mic unless/until I heard the satellite. I
didn't do anything special. I didn't have some secret site to go to, or a
veteran satellite operator to personally guide me along here. Heck. I'd never
even seen a demo.
The resources I used are available to everyone. Try Googling "Working amateur
radio satellites." I just did, and Google says it returned 1.23 million hits
for that term. If only one percent of them are truly focused on the search
term, that's a LOT of information available to anyone interested in working
satellites.
As for what we need in orbit - to respond to the comment Sebastian made at the
end of his post - I personally would like to have a chance to try operating a
satellite in an AO-7 (or slightly higher) orbit that would be configred like
the XW-1 satellite set for launch from China later this year. Here I go ...
relying on my memory again ... but I believe the post I read here on the BB
described a single-channel FM "repeater" like AO-51; a linear transponder for
CW/SSB, and a "flying mailbox." Now THAT would be cool in an orbit high enough
to provide the kind o coverage AO-7 does now. That was my first thought when I
read the description posted here some months ago.
73 to all,
Tim - N3TL
-------------- Original message from Adrian Engele <aa5uk@xxxxx.xxx>: --------
------
Tim, N3TL, we worked several times during my trip.( I just saw your post.... I
have too have amnesia sometimes ;)I have your QSL cards and you are in my Log
from my Trip. I agree with most of what you said but I think you
misinterpreted my use of the word "sport". I meant it in the context of
working the same stations over and over again, from a fixed station to another
fixed station. A satellite in the end it is just a repeater with the added
limit of a small working window and the usual Doppler shift. Perhaps we should
call it the "art" instead of "sport" of working a satellite. I know you have
perfected it very well and I have enjoyed reading many of your posts as I am
locationally challenged at home living in an apartment in Chicago. Not
conducive to working
> the birds unfortunately....
> I checked QRZ.com and many of the stations I worked had similar setups to
mine. Pretty much an HT and small antenna: Arrow or Elk. Also it was never my
intent
> to hog any of the satellites for the duration of my operations. That would
not
> be the spirit of a "True Satelliteer!" (a quote from WB2OQQ) There were many
> stations who needed EK99 but never managed to get through. I just wanted to
make
> a few stations happy for a new one. I had the option of going full power but
I
> chose not to on the FM birds. Perhaps I should next time. I am already
looking
> forward to my vacation next year, planned from Hawaii as of now. Now that is
> going to an operational challenge.
>
> Sebastian, W4AS, thanks for your kind words and the opportunity to work you
to.
> I sure wish I had your setup. I live in an apartment in Chicago so few
> opportunities to operate from a fixed location. I agree K5D could have done
a
> better job in their satellite operations. At minimum a simple rotor and even
a
> fixed antenna at 15 degrees with a two radios on all the current satellites
> would have worked better and would have probably provided more operators the
> chance to work K5D. A fulll blown setup with an AZ/EL rotor and doppler
tracking
> would have been the perfect setup considering all the other equipment that
was
> brought to the K5D DXpedition. It would be interesting to understand what
> planning was done for satellites operations for K5D. I won't speculate. FM
> satellites may not be the ideal satellites for a DXPedition but not
everybody
> has the gear to work the linear brids. I think it comes down to the DX
operator.
> FM satellites can be worked on a
> DXpedition. I had some pile ups on numerous passes and I was able to work
many
> stations with some discipline and good ears. It takes an operator with
> contesting experience to work a pile up and maintain order. Still it is very
> challenging especially on such operations as K5D. Not sure what to do in the
> future.
>
> I agree with Tim, everybody has their own motivation on the birds. Some go
after
> VUCC, some like to ragchew, some like to say good morning or good day to
their
> friend a few states over, some like to chase DX, some to work new or a new
rare
> gris, some like to be DX or be a in new grid. What ever the motivation it is
all
> about having fun with our hobby, but it is also about operational
excellence.
> Sebastian mentioned the many new users who get on the birds and don't
operate
> correctly. It is up to all of us to be their elmers online and offline and
make
> the new operators > good operators and good operators> better operators if
our
> hobby is to survive.
>
> Thank you both for your kind and spirited opinions. Tim, I wish I could work
you
> from my house in Spain from EA6 in JM09tb when I am there in October. Seems
AO7
> is just out of reach from the predictions I ran. Sebastian, I agree if there
is
> a person who could work Japan on AO-51 it would be Tim, which I know is
> physically impossible. I appreciate all Tim has done and is doing for the
hobby
> and the AMSAT community!
>
> Let's keep having fun and keep our arms open to new operators!
>
> 73,
>
> ;) Adrian
> AA5UK
> ZF2AE & ZF2AE/ZF8
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Sebastian .
> To: Adrian Engele
> Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 6:38:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: equal time
>
> Adrian, first I would like to thank you for taking the time to operate from
a DX
> location, in order to give others a chance to work you!
>
> Next, I think because of the things you have said, and the recent issue with
the
> K5D operation, we have learned that attempting to put up a rare country on
an FM
> satellite just doesn't work out. There are simply too many stations on AO-
51.
> Why - because it's easy to do. SO-50 because of the timer and PL tones, is
more
> difficult. A lot of hams don't realize that FO-29 is back in service, let
alone
> AO-27; and AO-27 is only on for about half the pass on the USA. AO-16 has
been
> off the air for months, and hopefully we will get it back sometime. The SSB
> birds are more difficult since it requires additional equipment, as opposed
to
> an HT or two and a small handheld antenna (with the exception of Tim who
could
> probably work Japan on AO-51 even though it's not in his footprint!) Tim
knows
> I'm joking.
>
> AO-51 is over used. And yes there are a lot of people who may not
necessarily
> run high power on there, but have large antennas of which I am one of. I
won't
> apologize for having outdoor directional high gain antennas controlled by an
LVB
> tracker. My antennas are from the days of AO-10 & AO-13, and I don't have
the
> ability to change to RH, LH circular polarization; I use axial polarization.
> Yes there are some who are using handheld antennas with roughly the same
amount
> of power that I am; but who's going to be heard (even with my 115 feet of
> LMR400)? Then there are those who believe it's a trivial task to setup a
full
> duplex HT with a hand held antenna and be heard. It's not easy. I've tried
it,
> and have concluded that it takes a lot of time to learn the 'tricks of the
> trade'. At least once a week, I hear a newcomer on one of the birds calling
CQ.
> And people come back to them, but that newcomer can't hear them, because
they
> aren't aware of
> doppler, etc.
>
> Then there are some who use 'high' power, I would say 50+ watts, but perhaps
> they need that power because they are using vertical antennas or eggbeaters,
> with 150 feet of RG-58 Radio Shack coax. And there are some who either use
high
> power, or have defective rigs (or both), and make it difficult for others to
> hear due to their spurious emissions because they want to have more contacts
> than anyone else.
>
> So what's the answer. Those who aren't active on the birds because they are
fed
> up will say we need a HEO.
>
> Those that are active on the birds don't have to say anything. They already
> know the problem.
>
> I would like for someone to explain to me why they disagree that what we
really
> need are more LEOs.
>
> 73 de W4AS
> Sebastian
>
> On Jun 14, 2009, at 6:03 PM, Adrian Engele wrote:
>
> > As many of you know I operated as ZF2AE from EK99 back in late March and
early
> April during my vacation from Grand Cayman and Little Cayman. I received
> numerous direct requests to have a sked as EK99 was needed for their VUCC
> awards. I made a big effort to meet all these requests received prior or
during
> that trip and in most instances I was successful. As a portable, I worked
AO-51
> and SO-50 with just an Arrow Antenna with an ARR preamp and 5W with my VX7R.
I
> also worked other stations on AO-7, FO-29 and VU52 using the same setup but
with
> my FT857D with 10 Watts instead. Let me tell you setting up as a portable
> station to work the linear birds is time consuming and required a big effort
> everytime. I was on vacation and Hamradio was a secondary activity.
> >
> > After my return, I went through my recordings it was clear that there were
> many missed opportunities to work certain stations for their requested skeds
.
> Why was this? In most cases, it came down to stations both domestic and
> international that are NOT LISTENING or not leaving enough space between
calls.
> Also it was clear these same stations were calling the same stations day in
and
> day out. What is the sport in this, working the same stations and the same
grids
> over and over again; especially when a DXpedition is ongoing and others need
to
> work that grid. I had numerous passes where I could not get once into an FM
> satellite during a planned sked. In some cases, I only managed one or two
> contacts. It was frustrating to say the least. Out of the 45+ passes I
completed
> during my trip there was only one satellite pass that was disciplined,
operators
> listened, called in order and over 15 contacts were worked in sequence with
zero
> interference and many
> happy
> > operators.
> >
> > I encourage operators with deluxe satellite stations running power with
full
> computer and rotation tracking to let more modest stations have their fair
share
> of opportunities to get into the satellites. You may disagree with this
concept,
> but I would like to remind the readers the FCC mandates that minimum power
> should be used to make at all times in to establish a contact.
> >
> > During my trip and upon my return, I received countless emails and QSL
cards
> thanking me for activating a new country and a new grid. In the end, that
was
> the biggest satisfaction of the whole DXpedition giving out a new one!
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Adrian
> > AA5UK
> > ZF2AE & ZF2AE/ZF8
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 280
****************************************
Read previous mail | Read next mail
| |
