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CX2SA > SATDIG 24.02.09 15:58l 967 Lines 40255 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Fw: AO-51 2/23/09 7:09PM Local (Andrew Glasbrenner)
2. Re: K5D an embarrassment (Angelo Glorioso (n5uxt))
3. Re: K5D from CM98kx? (Greg D.)
4. W9VNE response to N5UXT on AO 51 (Jim Danehy)
5. Needless discussions re AO51 (Dave Guimont)
6. Re: Needless discussions re AO51 (Greg D.)
7. Re: K5D an embarrassment (Edward Cole)
8. Re: Fw: AO-51 2/23/09 7:09PM Local (Alan P. Biddle)
9. Re: Needless discussions re AO51 (Kent Frazier)
10. Trying a Handheld for the First Time (Kent Frazier)
11. The Tragedy of the commons (Bob Bruninga )
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:56:04 -0500
From: "Andrew Glasbrenner" <glasbrenner@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Fw: AO-51 2/23/09 7:09PM Local
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <3F6BCB3C02B342AFA1FBA5927E108083@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
----- Original Message -----
From: "KP1-5 Project/Desecheo 2009" <kp1-5project@xxx.xxx>
To: "'Andrew Glasbrenner'" <glasbrenner@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:50 PM
Subject: AO-51 2/23/09 7:09PM Local
> XE3ISS
> N4AC
> NZ5NZ
> VE3VC
> N4HUF
> N3TL
> KC8NZJ
> WA4NVM
> WA4SCA
> K3VN
> N1RCN
>
> We heard many other callsign we could have gotten to but couldn't get into
> the repeater. It's fun.
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:25:39 -0600
From: "Angelo Glorioso \(n5uxt\)" <n5uxt@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: K5D an embarrassment
To: "Jim Danehy" <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>, "AMSATBBS"
<AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <BAY138-DS772AB30D2068C5860B1B8EDAF0@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Hello Jim! I have to agree with you and disagree with you. It never seizes
to amaze me how we use the lens of how it was in the old days all so often.
I
have been around amateur radio all my life. Dad is a ham,. mother is a ham,
brother is a ham, my yl is a ham. By no means does this mean I am an expert,
but feel that the culture is what makes the difference.
Before the use of split RX and TX, what is being experience on AO-51 was
considered the norm when it came to rare dx on HF. If you listen longer
enough on HF , you will witness it yourself even today. On 80 meters for
example.
Over the years experience dxers realized the need for control of the pile
up. Many different means were used to control this poor operating practices
of
stations calling over each other
over the years. Dx control person, calling cq by the numbers, zones, and
even times were given
out at one time. All which accomplished somewhat of a solution to the
problem.
I have to admire the fact that Amsat and member took the time to offer
Satellite
operation when it came to this expedition to the K5D team, but failed to
realized that these
operators really had no clue what they were about to experience on the air
on a flying
repeater, being the main focus of attention ( rare grid), be stuck to one
frequency and with the task of making as many contact as possible in a 12
minutes window.
Also lets not forget the issue with the real low low audio adding to the
problems.
Dxing in itself is competitive in nature. Sometime the excitement of
working
a rare station overcomes the come sense of good operating practices, even on
HF as well. By no means am I saying it is right, but this is where the
experience operators
come to play. Many of us often forget what an experience portable satellite
operator has to do
during a pass. Now try and add a rate grid and a non-experience operator can
lead to
a formula for what we are experiencing today on AO-51.
I admire the K5D team for sticking it out and for KO4MA showing restraint
for not turning off
the repeater.
All in all, revisiting of this issue reminded me of fact that satellite
operators should
only make one out going call to give others an opportunity to use the bird.
So, I want to thank you for
helping me realign myself again and hope I add to good leadership for my
fellow amateur satellite
operators.
Jim, am sorry you have left this part of the hobby but hope that maybe some
day you will return to help be a Elmer to some of the new satellite
operators that need it.
I heard a statement on AO-51 tonight from an operator I admire and look up
to. In so many words he said, I would rather not put my 2 cents in and get
flamed
at for his views. I hope that if I do get flames I can put then out in
time.. HI HI
Remember, we all can learn and we need experience operators like yourself
to
help grow the hobby in the right direction. People can change! :-)
73 de Angelo N5UXT
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jim Danehy" <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:04 PM
To: <AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] K5D an embarrassment
> I no longer read the AMSAT bulletin board. I have intentionally not
> operated the satellites for several months. I have some local friends who
> still do read AMSAT BB and attempt to operate the satellites. They
> forwarded to me W4AS and WD9EWK's emails concerning the (quite
> predictable) debacle with K5D.
>
> My two local friends who continue to read AMSAT BB and operate AO 51 are
> very disgusted with the operating on AO 51. It got to the point with me
> that any attempts to show leadership by example or the written word
> received a substantial amount of push back. So I put my ham radio
> operating in a different mode.
>
> I have been a licensed amateur since October 1952 and I have worked every
> DX entity except North Korea. My total on the ARRL DXCC Honor Roll is 364
> entities. I only cite my background in order to show some sense of
> credibility and knowledge. I worked the satellites back in circa 1974 (
> Oscar 6 ) when it took some technical savvy to adjust for the Doppler
> effect. It was fun and working some DX was a thrill that still lingers.
>
> Upon my recent retirement I decided to equip my station with a satellite
> setup. I have a substantial amount of money invested ( $3500 ) in antennas
> and transceiver. I can work just about anything that I can hear. Since
> August 2008 until December I made more than 800 QSOs in 200 grids and 15
> countries. I met a lot of fine people who gave me good advice.
>
> Unfortunately the operation of AO 51 is a large embarrassment. I have
> never in 56 years of operating ever seen demonstrated such poor operating
> procedures. I am not writing this note to trash AMSAT. I could continue to
> operate, experiment and enjoy HF and VHF radio and ignore the Satellite
> operation. However, I have always thought when you see something that is
> terribly wrong you have an obligation for the ( Ham and AMSAT ) community
> to speak out. That is the spirit in which I write.
>
> Operating an FM repeater on a satellite is asking for trouble. To attempt
> to work DX on an FM repeater is a guarantee for trouble. Some operators
> have very little operating experience of any kind. They take the lead of
> others they hear operating. I read the AMSAT Journal in a matter of
> minutes and never look at it again. The articles remind me of an IEEE
> Journal. Most ( not all ) of the authors are not currently active on the
> satellites based upon my constant use of the birds for four months. Very
> little is written about how to operate. There is a need for such
> articles. Sebastian, W4AS is correct in stating that there are a
> substantial number of users who never read or are even aware of the AMSAT
> BB. Fewer yet are AMSAT members who get the Journal.
>
> If you think that AO 51 represents the normal operating ability of the
> average ham you are dreaming. AO 51 represents the VERY WORST operating
> I have every witnessed. It is an embarrassment. I could list dozens of
> examples but that would be a waste of time.
>
> AO 51 is not the only satellite. I had to give up on AO 7 because of a K3
> station who continues to use high power and trashes the transponder for
> others who would like to use it. I have had numerous people write me about
> that station. You can copy him in 5 or 6 spots when he transmits. That is
> an embarrassment too. Yet nobody speaks out. It reminds me of the fable
> about the Emperor and his new clothes.
>
> I have heard some licensed operators turn the microphone over to their kid
> who then CQs after CQs. . . .I list that of the many infractions because
> it is easy to cure. Tell the operator to take the microphone back.
>
> The satellites with transponders go relatively unused. Why ? If you do not
> know the answer then you do not understand the question.
>
> To those that continue to use and hopefully enjoy AO 51 jump in and speak
> out when you see somebody doing something that is not helpful to the
> satellite community. I think Sebastian did. I know that Patrick also has
> his heart in the right place.
>
> I recently travelled to the Turks & Caicos Islands for a vacation and some
> radio operating. I got to use a rare prefix VQ5 rather than VP5. A couple
> of my local friends asked if I was going to operate the satellites. I just
> looked at them and smiled. They did too. I worked HF and it was enjoyable.
>
> 73 Jim W9VNE
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:34:07 -0800
From: "Greg D." <ko6th_greg@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: K5D from CM98kx?
To: <bbj@xxxxxxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <BLU133-W370B4F933FCEF1DA4E6523A9AF0@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Ben,
Ah, that's what I was afraid of. Thanks so much for running the numbers. My
setup here is pretty good, but I'm also in a bit of a hole, and am surrounded
on most sides by live oak trees. The only clear shot at some sort of a
horizon is to the west, and that just ain't gonna work. I don't get into the
V/U birds very well below 5 or so degrees headed south east, and it's a lot
worse on L or S. And, no, I don't own all the trees, so a chain saw is not
going to solve everything :-).
One puzzle, though... If AO-51 is at a higher altitude than SO-50, therefore
having a bigger footprint, why is the only mutual pass on SO-50? I'm guessing
it's just how the passes (don't) line up at this particular time, right?
Thanks again,
Greg KO6TH
p.s. to Mark... Nice software, right operating system!
> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:47:12 -0500
> From: bbj@xxxxxxxx.xxx
> To: ko6th_greg@xxxxxxx.xxx
> CC: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] K5D from CM98kx?
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Greg D. wrote:
> > Does anyone know if either of the sats being used by K5D have a
> > mutual window with CM98kx (that would be me)? I just realized that
> > none of my software knows how to compute this, and all of the passes
> > I've looked at don't appear to cover us both. If there is a pass, it
> > seems like it would be vanishingly low on the south eastern horizon.
>
> Greg:
>
> I ran CM98 and FK68 through some software that Mark K6HX wrote a while
> back (and I begged him to send to me... Mark, have you released it yet?)
> and the results are not promising:
>
> bbj@xxxxxxxxxxx mutual AO-51 CM98kx FK68gj
> bbj@xxxxxxxxxxx mutual SO-50 CM98kx FK68gj
> || 2009/02/23 21:31:00 | CM98kx +0.1 107.6 | FK68gj +0.6 295.9 ||
> || 2009/02/23 21:31:15 | CM98kx +0.2 105.6 | FK68gj +0.7 297.9 ||
> || 2009/02/23 21:31:30 | CM98kx +0.3 103.6 | FK68gj +0.9 300.0 ||
> || 2009/02/23 21:31:45 | CM98kx +0.3 101.5 | FK68gj +1.0 302.0 ||
> || 2009/02/23 21:32:00 | CM98kx +0.3 99.5 | FK68gj +1.0 304.1 ||
> || 2009/02/23 21:32:15 | CM98kx +0.3 97.5 | FK68gj +1.1 306.2 ||
> || 2009/02/23 21:32:30 | CM98kx +0.3 95.4 | FK68gj +1.1 308.3 ||
> || 2009/02/23 21:32:45 | CM98kx +0.2 93.4 | FK68gj +1.1 310.4 ||
> || 2009/02/23 21:33:00 | CM98kx +0.1 91.4 | FK68gj +1.0 312.5 ||
> || 2009/02/23 21:33:15 | CM98kx +0.0 89.4 | FK68gj +0.9 314.5 ||
>
> bbj@xxxxxxxxxxx mutual ARISS CM98kx FK68gj
> bbj@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> How good is your setup? ;)
>
> ~Ben
>
> - --
> Ben Jackson - N1WBV - New Bedford, MA
> bbj <at> innismir.net - http://www.innismir.net/
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 00:13:04 -0500
From: "Jim Danehy" <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] W9VNE response to N5UXT on AO 51
To: "Angelo Glorioso \(n5uxt\)" <n5uxt@xxxxxxx.xxx>, "AMSATBBS"
<AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <33BDE9595E284CBFA1C18455DF65A8E0@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
Angelo N5UXT
Thank you for writing. I have had quite a few responses direct to me and off
the AMSAT BB . . . but since your email provided me the opportunity to reply
to ALL and copy the BB I am using that opportunity . . .the direct responses
have all been favorable . . . I still do not read AMSAT BB . . . thanks to
all who have written direct . . .
. . . I usually end up operating from some island ( DX Country ) every
year. . . this year my operation was from VP5 land and it was all CW a few
weeks ago . . . I do not operate split frequency . . . I am old school and
I am able to run pile ups at high rates like K5D without telling the callers
where to go to call . . . I consider (and many of my old school peers join
me) spreading stations out over 5khz to 10 khz a disgrace . . . I hear a DX
station taking up 5 khz to 10 khz of spectrum which just shows poor
operating because they can not pick out stations unless they are spread out
so wide. . . I usually respond to callers within 1 khz of my operating
frequency . . . . infrequently responding to sharp operators who call below
my frequency (and in the clear) . . . I also operate without using the CW
filters so I can hear more stations at once and use the filter in my brain
to pick out stations . . . it is a skill that has taken decades to achieve .
. .my CW speed usually is 35 + wpm . . .I suggest that those who want to
learn how to operate CW DX purchase Bob Locher, W9KNI's book on : How to
Work DX . . . ARRL sells it . . . Bob and I went to college together 50
years ago and he makes the famous Bencher paddles . . .
You and I can agree that there are different cultures, that is life . . . I
consider myself somewhat of an iconoclast in today's culture but mainstream
when it comes to getting things done efficiently and effectively . . .
making the maximum QSOs in the shortest time frame . .. that is how the
game is played on a DXpedition like K5D . . .
years ago (1952) the DX on Ten Meters had privileges below 28.5 mhz on AM
phone and that is where a lot of the DX operated. American hams did not have
operating privileges below 28.5 and operated split (on phone) . . . you
adapted if you wanted to catch the DX and it took some ingenuity . . .things
do change and folks need to adapt . . . but spreading out so wide shows poor
operating ability on the DX operator . .
what is abundantly clear on AO 51 is a lack of respect for your fellow
operator . . . an intolerance for patience . . . when some well known
operators go to a rare grid square (grid square collecting as you know is a
common addiction to the AO 51 operator) and announce that they are operating
portable from Grid XX xx folks just call CQ or operate on top of the
station who has taken time and spent money to go somewhere for their fellow
operator . . . an example of lack of respect and us old timers call that
being a LID . . .
like others I have taken the time to email or call on the telephone
operators who have NO EARS (can not hear but continue to call to the
annoyance of the community) . . . I have helped several and received their
gratitude . . . others told me to mind my own business . . . I do not feel
I should mind my own business . . . it is MY BUSINESS that all hams show
respect to others and to the hobby that most of us love . . . I still enjoy
CW on the transponder satellites from time to time . . . most of those that
have replied direct to me and off AMSAT BB agree with me and feel that AO
51 is a shining example of CB Radio at its worst. . . it is what it is
(modern saying) . .
as for flaming . . . there is no place for lack of civility . . . thanks for
your view point . . .attempting to work DX on a satellite via an FM repeater
is a fool's folly . . . I personally know several of the K5D operators. . .
I doubt that they had any idea of what to expect from their satellite
experience . . . they do now . . . having operated on several large
DXpeditions where RATE (total number of QSOs) is the goal there will be a
reluctance in the future to allocate the hauling of gear and the expenditure
of time to working the satellites . . . just my opinion . . . I do favor
free speech and civility. . . thank you for taking the time to write . .
NO I have not left this (satellite) part of the hobby . . . I got back on
after being off for 30 years plus and successfully achieved a goal of making
a contact with the International Space Station (ISS) . . . that was one of
my biggest thrills in ham radio . . I cherish the recording of that exchange
. . .
my current station for the birds is a good one with elevation and azimuth
control and 12 db + yagis . . . also computer assist on control of the
doppler effect . . . learning how to assemble such a station and integrate
the software and hardware was a learning experience . . . the operating just
helps me validate my ability to do it properly . . .I had assistance from
others who heard me making some mistakes .. . I owe then a debt of
gratitude for their help . . . . .I doubt that the LIDS on AO51 use the
sophistication that is available to them . . . that is why the transponders
(SSB/CW) are free of poor operating . . . and how you get suprised by having
stations like HR1LW call you on CW on VO 52 . . .
you might even hear me on AO 51 again . . . I learned long ago never to
rule out anything . . . but like a lot of folks I try to avoid listening to
poor operating by LIDS . . .
73 Jim W9VNE
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:12:55 -0800
From: Dave Guimont <dguimon1@xxx.xx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Needless discussions re AO51
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID:
<20090224061323.BZAL4483.cdptpa-
omta05.mail.rr.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
This is NOT a criticism of AO51. Use it, such as it is, and enjoy
it, but try the following:
I was on FO29 with my friend, Leo, W7JPL, in AZ, and we had a nice 10
minute conversation, 100% readability on FO29. Much as we have been
doing for over 25 years on FO29, and most of the other LEO'S and
HEO'S. I spent the other 10 minutes of a 20 minute pass searching
the pass band for other stations. And using minimal antennas....
Most of NW Mexico was visible, western half of the US and Canada, all
of Alaska, and the NE portion of Russia, and there was NO ONE ELSE IN
THE PASSBAND!!
The downlink of FO29 goes from 435.800 to 435.900,
with a corresponding reversed uplink on 2 meters, 146.00 to 145.900.
Room for dozens of ssb and or cw contacts.
I've instructed 14-18 year old hams in San Diego, and plus a copy of
Marty Davidoff's RADIO AMATEUR'S SATELLITE MANUAL they operated
easily....The manual is available from ARRL..
Try the manual, and if you have questions, I will gladly answer them,
or tell you where to get the answer..
73, Dave, WB6LLO
dguimon1@xxx.xx.xxx
Disagree: I learn....
Pulling for P3E...
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:27:46 -0800
From: "Greg D." <ko6th_greg@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Needless discussions re AO51
To: <dguimon1@xxx.xx.xxx>, <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <BLU133-W1699B9F32693109BBE34ACA9AF0@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Agreed! I just tuned in on the tail end of a pass of FO-29 just now, and
caught the end of what sounded like a nice long casual chat between VA7MG and
KC9ICH, and worked VA7MG when they were done. Very clean signals (if a little
loud), and no frantic speech or stepped on half-sentences. The nice thing
about full duplex SSB is that it's very much like real speech - you can both
talk over each other and hear what's going on, just like real life. You don't
have an exchange on FO-29, you have conversations. And, at over 650 miles up,
it has a footprint second only to AO-7, and even works in the dark!
Greg KO6TH
> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:12:55 -0800
> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> From: dguimon1@xxx.xx.xxx
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Needless discussions re AO51
>
> This is NOT a criticism of AO51. Use it, such as it is, and enjoy
> it, but try the following:
>
> I was on FO29 with my friend, Leo, W7JPL, in AZ, and we had a nice 10
> minute conversation, 100% readability on FO29. Much as we have been
> doing for over 25 years on FO29, and most of the other LEO'S and
> HEO'S. I spent the other 10 minutes of a 20 minute pass searching
> the pass band for other stations. And using minimal antennas....
>
> Most of NW Mexico was visible, western half of the US and Canada, all
> of Alaska, and the NE portion of Russia, and there was NO ONE ELSE IN
> THE PASSBAND!!
>
> The downlink of FO29 goes from 435.800 to 435.900,
> with a corresponding reversed uplink on 2 meters, 146.00 to 145.900.
> Room for dozens of ssb and or cw contacts.
>
> I've instructed 14-18 year old hams in San Diego, and plus a copy of
> Marty Davidoff's RADIO AMATEUR'S SATELLITE MANUAL they operated
> easily....The manual is available from ARRL..
>
> Try the manual, and if you have questions, I will gladly answer them,
> or tell you where to get the answer..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 73, Dave, WB6LLO
> dguimon1@xxx.xx.xxx
>
> Disagree: I learn....
>
> Pulling for P3E...
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:07:23 -0900
From: Edward Cole <kl7uw@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: K5D an embarrassment
To: "AMSATBBS" <AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <200902240707.n1O77NP8028812@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Just a comment about comparing HF DX pile ups with Leo satellite operation:
Quite a few SSB or CW signals can coexist on nearly the same
frequency. FM the strongest signal wins and the rest are buried. If
two or more FM stations transmit simultaneously at nearly the same
intensity, the result is garbled noise.
HF DX pile ups can spread out in frequency or work spit
frequency. On a single FM channel, off freq operation results in
poor distorted audio with no info being passed. The solution to a
single simplex FM operation is some sense of cooperation.
So the similarity between HF and satellite are not a very good
comparison. The existence of huge noise and not much effective
communications is probably the only thing in common. I haven't been
QRV on satellites since the demise of AO-40, except a couple times on
UO-14 and copying AO-51 telemetry.
I am lucky that over the pole the satellite is pretty quiet since its
footprint does not include the lower-48 for a good part of a pass.
But then I do not chase DX on HF much, either!
Just my two cents!
73, Ed - KL7UW
celebrated 50-years as a ham Nov. 11, 2008
Involved with Amsat since AO-6
PS: having just gotten a Triband antenna up on a tower last
November, kind of enjoying working some 20m!
At 05:25 PM 2/23/2009, Angelo Glorioso \(n5uxt\) wrote:
> Hello Jim! I have to agree with you and disagree with you. It never seizes
>to amaze me how we use the lens of how it was in the old days all so often.
>I
>have been around amateur radio all my life. Dad is a ham,. mother is a ham,
>brother is a ham, my yl is a ham. By no means does this mean I am an expert,
>but feel that the culture is what makes the difference.
>
> Before the use of split RX and TX, what is being experience on AO-51 was
>considered the norm when it came to rare dx on HF. If you listen longer
>enough on HF , you will witness it yourself even today. On 80 meters for
>example.
>
> Over the years experience dxers realized the need for control of the pile
>up. Many different means were used to control this poor operating practices
>of
>stations calling over each other
>over the years. Dx control person, calling cq by the numbers, zones, and
>even times were given
>out at one time. All which accomplished somewhat of a solution to the
>problem.
>
> I have to admire the fact that Amsat and member took the time to offer
>Satellite
>operation when it came to this expedition to the K5D team, but failed to
>realized that these
>operators really had no clue what they were about to experience on the air
>on a flying
>repeater, being the main focus of attention ( rare grid), be stuck to one
>frequency and with the task of making as many contact as possible in a 12
>minutes window.
>Also lets not forget the issue with the real low low audio adding to the
>problems.
>
> Dxing in itself is competitive in nature. Sometime the excitement of
>working
>a rare station overcomes the come sense of good operating practices, even on
>HF as well. By no means am I saying it is right, but this is where the
>experience operators
>come to play. Many of us often forget what an experience portable satellite
>operator has to do
>during a pass. Now try and add a rate grid and a non-experience operator can
>lead to
>a formula for what we are experiencing today on AO-51.
>
> I admire the K5D team for sticking it out and for KO4MA showing restraint
>for not turning off
>the repeater.
>
> All in all, revisiting of this issue reminded me of fact that satellite
>operators should
>only make one out going call to give others an opportunity to use the bird.
>So, I want to thank you for
>helping me realign myself again and hope I add to good leadership for my
>fellow amateur satellite
>operators.
>
> Jim, am sorry you have left this part of the hobby but hope that maybe some
>day you will return to help be a Elmer to some of the new satellite
>operators that need it.
>I heard a statement on AO-51 tonight from an operator I admire and look up
>to. In so many words he said, I would rather not put my 2 cents in and get
>flamed
>at for his views. I hope that if I do get flames I can put then out in
>time.. HI HI
>
> Remember, we all can learn and we need experience operators like yourself
>to
>help grow the hobby in the right direction. People can change! :-)
>
>
>
>73 de Angelo N5UXT
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>From: "Jim Danehy" <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>
>Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:04 PM
>To: <AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx>
>Subject: [amsat-bb] K5D an embarrassment
>
> > I no longer read the AMSAT bulletin board. I have intentionally not
> > operated the satellites for several months. I have some local friends who
> > still do read AMSAT BB and attempt to operate the satellites. They
> > forwarded to me W4AS and WD9EWK's emails concerning the (quite
> > predictable) debacle with K5D.
> >
> > My two local friends who continue to read AMSAT BB and operate AO 51 are
> > very disgusted with the operating on AO 51. It got to the point with me
> > that any attempts to show leadership by example or the written word
> > received a substantial amount of push back. So I put my ham radio
> > operating in a different mode.
> >
> > I have been a licensed amateur since October 1952 and I have worked every
> > DX entity except North Korea. My total on the ARRL DXCC Honor Roll is 364
> > entities. I only cite my background in order to show some sense of
> > credibility and knowledge. I worked the satellites back in circa 1974 (
> > Oscar 6 ) when it took some technical savvy to adjust for the Doppler
> > effect. It was fun and working some DX was a thrill that still lingers.
> >
> > Upon my recent retirement I decided to equip my station with a satellite
> > setup. I have a substantial amount of money invested ( $3500 ) in antennas
> > and transceiver. I can work just about anything that I can hear. Since
> > August 2008 until December I made more than 800 QSOs in 200 grids and 15
> > countries. I met a lot of fine people who gave me good advice.
> >
> > Unfortunately the operation of AO 51 is a large embarrassment. I have
> > never in 56 years of operating ever seen demonstrated such poor operating
> > procedures. I am not writing this note to trash AMSAT. I could continue to
> > operate, experiment and enjoy HF and VHF radio and ignore the Satellite
> > operation. However, I have always thought when you see something that is
> > terribly wrong you have an obligation for the ( Ham and AMSAT ) community
> > to speak out. That is the spirit in which I write.
> >
> > Operating an FM repeater on a satellite is asking for trouble. To attempt
> > to work DX on an FM repeater is a guarantee for trouble. Some operators
> > have very little operating experience of any kind. They take the lead of
> > others they hear operating. I read the AMSAT Journal in a matter of
> > minutes and never look at it again. The articles remind me of an IEEE
> > Journal. Most ( not all ) of the authors are not currently active on the
> > satellites based upon my constant use of the birds for four months. Very
> > little is written about how to operate. There is a need for such
> > articles. Sebastian, W4AS is correct in stating that there are a
> > substantial number of users who never read or are even aware of the AMSAT
> > BB. Fewer yet are AMSAT members who get the Journal.
> >
> > If you think that AO 51 represents the normal operating ability of the
> > average ham you are dreaming. AO 51 represents the VERY WORST operating
> > I have every witnessed. It is an embarrassment. I could list dozens of
> > examples but that would be a waste of time.
> >
> > AO 51 is not the only satellite. I had to give up on AO 7 because of a K3
> > station who continues to use high power and trashes the transponder for
> > others who would like to use it. I have had numerous people write me about
> > that station. You can copy him in 5 or 6 spots when he transmits. That is
> > an embarrassment too. Yet nobody speaks out. It reminds me of the fable
> > about the Emperor and his new clothes.
> >
> > I have heard some licensed operators turn the microphone over to their kid
> > who then CQs after CQs. . . .I list that of the many infractions because
> > it is easy to cure. Tell the operator to take the microphone back.
> >
> > The satellites with transponders go relatively unused. Why ? If you do not
> > know the answer then you do not understand the question.
> >
> > To those that continue to use and hopefully enjoy AO 51 jump in and speak
> > out when you see somebody doing something that is not helpful to the
> > satellite community. I think Sebastian did. I know that Patrick also has
> > his heart in the right place.
> >
> > I recently travelled to the Turks & Caicos Islands for a vacation and some
> > radio operating. I got to use a rare prefix VQ5 rather than VP5. A couple
> > of my local friends asked if I was going to operate the satellites. I just
> > looked at them and smiled. They did too. I worked HF and it was enjoyable.
> >
> > 73 Jim W9VNE
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
>_______________________________________________
>Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 04:10:44 -0600
From: "Alan P. Biddle" <APBIDDLE@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Fw: AO-51 2/23/09 7:09PM Local
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <E7FF8958D74246C5A3517EF4916F41B2@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> the repeater. It's fun.
Sounds like we are getting to the top of the learning curve. And he is
right. It was fun!
Alan
WA4SCA
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 06:57:29 -0600
From: Kent Frazier <k5knt.kent@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Needless discussions re AO51
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID:
<92f8f1580902240457l6a157c5er4d3c2faefc6c54a@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I'd love to be able to use the other sats. Unfortunately, I'm limited to a
2m hand held (Icom IC-T22A) and a dual band mobile (Icom IC-2720H). It
doesn't look like I'm going to be able to upgrade equipment any time soon
either.
73, Kent K5KNT
ARRL
AMSAT #36765
Sent from: San Angelo Texas United States.
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 00:12, Dave Guimont <dguimon1@xxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
> This is NOT a criticism of AO51. Use it, such as it is, and enjoy
> it, but try the following:
>
> I was on FO29 with my friend, Leo, W7JPL, in AZ, and we had a nice 10
> minute conversation, 100% readability on FO29. Much as we have been
> doing for over 25 years on FO29, and most of the other LEO'S and
> HEO'S. I spent the other 10 minutes of a 20 minute pass searching
> the pass band for other stations. And using minimal antennas....
>
> Most of NW Mexico was visible, western half of the US and Canada, all
> of Alaska, and the NE portion of Russia, and there was NO ONE ELSE IN
> THE PASSBAND!!
>
> The downlink of FO29 goes from 435.800 to 435.900,
> with a corresponding reversed uplink on 2 meters, 146.00 to 145.900.
> Room for dozens of ssb and or cw contacts.
>
> I've instructed 14-18 year old hams in San Diego, and plus a copy of
> Marty Davidoff's RADIO AMATEUR'S SATELLITE MANUAL they operated
> easily....The manual is available from ARRL..
>
> Try the manual, and if you have questions, I will gladly answer them,
> or tell you where to get the answer..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 73, Dave, WB6LLO
> dguimon1@xxx.xx.xxx
>
> Disagree: I learn....
>
> Pulling for P3E...
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 07:09:49 -0600
From: Kent Frazier <k5knt.kent@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Trying a Handheld for the First Time
To: "AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxxx <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID:
<92f8f1580902240509x6dc9fc8ev319fc364736dfa16@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Hello everyone,
I am going to try using my handheld for the first time today (February 24,
2009) during the 2200UTC SO-50 pass over DM91. Since my radio is 2m only
I'll be listening to the downlink on my mobile rig. I have no idea if or how
this is going to work. If anyone is able to make a recording of me during
this pass it would be really appreciated if they would email a copy to me.
I'll be trying again on the following passes, all SO-50:
February 25, 2009 20:47 and 22:27 UTC
February 26, 2009 21:15 UTC
February 27, 2009 20:06 and 21:45 UTC (Depending on what plans my daughter
has)
February 28, 2009 2033 UTC
Thanks,
73, Kent K5KNT
ARRL
AMSAT #36765
Sent from: San Angelo Texas United States.
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:31:47 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bob Bruninga " <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] The Tragedy of the commons
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <20090224083147.AJA45664@xxx.xxxxxxx.xxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
The situation on AO-51 is called the "tragedy of the commons" and is as
predictable as day and night and an inescapable result of human nature. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
No amount of grousing and complaining, and high minded condemnation of others
is going to change that. What we need to do is not try to change human nature
(my wife has been trying to do that her entire life with little to show for
it), but either live with it and take advantage of it, or change the paradigm.
I have been recommending for years that we solve it like we do any amateur
radio net. That is, operate with volunteer net control operators that take
checkins by region or other discriminant for the duration of the pass. On
each exchange, he announces the next narrow selection and takes checkins.
Ever mindful of the satellite location on the map.
Examples from a pass from Sandiego to Maine:
"This is N6XXX taking checkins from K6's in SOCAL"
"Now W6's... Now A6's.... Now N6's.
"This is N6XXX taking checkins from HT's in SOCAL
"now W0's... now K0's, now ...
"Handing over to Net Control in the Central States...
and so forth.
How do you define Net Control? Easy. the first guy with the most power and
stamina.
Can you think of problems, sure! There are all kinds of complaints and issues
and why-not-me, and how-could you limit my rights... etc... that we will hear,
but operating as a net has always been the method in radio to gain some
semblance of order, and we should be proud of our tradition in that regard.
What about contesting and points, and scores, etc? That is easy. We define a
contact as a 2 way between every person that got his full call and grid or
location through. After all, that is what a net control does, facilitate the
many-way exchange of information between all users.
If net control hears of a DEMO, or DX station or special event, or emergency
traffic, or island expedition, he can then give that station the attention it
needs.
Anyway, this method cannot be worse than what we have now (which is a free-
for-all which is setup to fail as the tragedy of the commons). We operated
PCSAT2 FM voice repeater sometimes with a net control and it was nice and
orderly and fun.
Anyway, there is the solution. Either try it, or keep complaining forever...
Bob, Wb4APR
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 89
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