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CX2SA > SATDIG 28.12.08 13:05l 1167 Lines 40128 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: CX2SA@CX2SA.LAV.URY.SA
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fw: ELK or ARROW (Jim Danehy)
2. Re: Fw: ELK or ARROW (n3tl@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
3. Re: Fw: ELK or ARROW (n3tl@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
4. Re: Delfi C3 status? (WILLIAMS MICHAEL)
5. Re: Portable Satellite LOTW (Sebastian)
6. Re: Fw: ELK or ARROW (Gary "Joe" Mayfield)
7. Re: Fw: ELK or ARROW (Jim Jerzycke)
8. More LOTW stuff (Gary "Joe" Mayfield)
9. Re: Arrow vs. Elk (Clint Bradford)
10. Re: Fw: ELK or ARROW (David Donaldson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:05:09 -0500
From: "Jim Danehy" <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Fw: ELK or ARROW
To: <kc6uqh@xxx.xxx>, <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <2959C2E38A8C4B268F95105AEF03B38D@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Art
Well said . . . . I love fooling around with antennas of all sorts . . .
hard for some to build rigs but antennas much easier projects . . . a ton
of engineering info out there as you say . . . ARROW and ELK work but can
work better with some tweaking . . . have fun . . . there is DBi
(isotropic) and DBd (dipole) but do not forget DBa (advertising) the
latter is more abused than the other two . .
Jim W9VNE
----- Original Message -----
From: "Art McBride" <kc6uqh@xxx.xxx>
To: "'Jim Danehy'" <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>; <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 9:59 PM
Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Fw: ELK or ARROW
> To All,
> 1. Amateur Radio is learning by doing.
> 2. A large amount of data on Yagi type antennas exists, easily found, and
> is
> well proven.
> 3. Several design programs for antennas exist reducing construction time
> and
> waist of materials.
> 4. Equipment to measure comparative antenna performance at VHF/UHF
> frequencies is not hard to find.
>
> Why do we line the pockets of some poorly designed antenna manufacturing
> companies instead of learning how and making the best performing antennas
> for our own use? If we do not learn these skills, no one will be left to
> teach and the skills will be lost.
>
> There are many older Amateurs willing to teach those that want to learn,
> and
> hopefully many of those wanting to learn are at least one half of the age
> of
> those who can teach!
>
> Art,
> KC6UQH
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On
> Behalf Of Jim Danehy
> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:33 PM
> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Fw: ELK or ARROW
>
>
> . there is the old adage that you get what you pay for . . . why buy a
> poorly designed antenna that does not work very well
>> ?
>>
>> If you have a 5 element yagi that only produces 4 dbi you are not
>> getting
>
>> what you paid for . . . most 2 element yagis would out perform that
>> statistic . . . a 5 element yagi should be at least 9 db + or 10 db dbd
>> (dipole ) not isotropic . . . . there is something that is called
>> MERCHANTABILITY . . .i.e., an IMPLIED WARRANTY that you are getting at
>> least the minimum for your money . . .
>> 4 dbi for an Arrow is way off base . . . so it is not just ; you can not
>> afford a Cadillac but you are not even getting a Ford or Chevy . .
>> i.e.,
>
>> the gain of a 5 element yagi on 435 mhz . . . that is the issue, not
>> cost
>
>> alone . . . . . . same comments apply to the ELK but I have attempted to
>> make the point that there is a minimum performance for a certain number
>> of
>
>> elements that is pretty OBJECTIVE and when it is not met . . . . well
>> that is my point . . . these two antennas have shown to some testers that
>> they do not measure up to the minimum EXPECTATIONS . . .unfortunately
>> that
>
>> is acceptable to some . . . . then it becomes acceptable to many . . .
>> and objectivity is abandoned . . .
>>
>> Jim W9VNE
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Trey Brown" <palintheus@xxxxx.xxx>
>> To: "Jim Danehy" <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] ELK or ARROW
>>
>>
>>> Thanks for the comments. Realize, though, that not everyone wants or
>>> can afford to have the Cadillac.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Jim Danehy <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>> the Arrow antenna has been critiqued by Kent Britain, WA5VJB
>>>>
>>>> http://wa5vjb.com/references/Cheap%20Antennas-LEOs.pdf
>>>>
>>>> he says that some have measured the Arrow for gain on 435 mhz @ 4 dbi
>>>> (isotropic) . . . . and that further analysis showed that for the
>>>> element lengths used on 435 mhz that it peaks at 457 mhz and not 435
>>>> mhz
>
>>>> . . . Kent is a well respected VHF/UHF antenna person who has plenty of
>>>> credibility . . .
>>>>
>>>> Kent opines that the Arrow, as built does not have its elements
>>>> insulated from the boom. It uses dimensions for insulated elements . .
>>>> .
>
>>>> so much for the Arrow . . . .
>>>>
>>>> Now for the ELK : a local friend of mine owns an Arrow and he uses it
>>>> successfully. He bought an ELK and attempted to compare the Arrow and
>>>> the ELK . . . . he could not make an across town QSO on 435 mhz from
>>>> his
>
>>>> second story window with the ELK , so he sent the ELK back for a refund
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>> I have worked and exchanged QSLs with several hundred satellite users .
>>>> . .the majority of the folks that have worked and QSLed me (close to
>>>> 250
>
>>>> + ) have been using either the Arrow or ELK based upon the information
>>>> on their cards. So they are popular. Are they optimum ? A lot of
>>>> anecdotal information would seem to say NO . . .
>>>>
>>>> Thirty-five years ago I worked Oscar 6 with a homebrew 2 mtr yagi that
>>>> probably was worse than either the Arrow or Elk but I worked YV and KL7
>>>> from Indiana on CW with about 15 watts to the 3 elements which my XYL
>>>> waved around at my directions . . . not any more . . .what do I use
>>>> these days : a pair of circular polarity yagis on 10 foot booms
>>>> manufactured by M Square . . . .
>>>>
>>>> Folks ask what should they buy ? Maybe a Ford or maybe a Chevy . . .
>>>> neither is a Cadillac . . . .
>>>>
>>>> Jim W9VNE
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
>>>> author.
>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>> program!
>>>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Trey -- N5THX
>>>
>>> They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
>>> safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
>>> - Benjamin Franklin
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 3719 (20081227) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 3719 (20081227) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 03:17:07 +0000
From: n3tl@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Fw: ELK or ARROW
To: "Jim Danehy" <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>, <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID:
<122820080317.19020.4956EFB300078E7F00004A4C22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C
04040A0DBF049BCC02@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
Jim,
I don't believe Arrow publishes gain numbers for its handheld yagi. I'm
confident someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that, and even provide
the numbers.
Elk does - its Web site includes the following for the Model 2M/440L5 that I
use:
2M Gain 6.8 dbd (8.9 dBi)
440 Gain 7 dBd (9 dBi)
Please help me to understand how the same comments you made about the Arrow
apply to the Elk. What should the numbers be for that antenna?
Thank you in advance,
Tim
-------------- Original message from "Jim Danehy" <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>: ----
----------
>
> . there is the old adage that you get what you pay for . . . why buy a
> poorly designed antenna that does not work very well
> > ?
> >
> > If you have a 5 element yagi that only produces 4 dbi you are not getting
> > what you paid for . . . most 2 element yagis would out perform that
> > statistic . . . a 5 element yagi should be at least 9 db + or 10 db dbd
> > (dipole ) not isotropic . . . . there is something that is called
> > MERCHANTABILITY . . .i.e., an IMPLIED WARRANTY that you are getting at
> > least the minimum for your money . . .
> > 4 dbi for an Arrow is way off base . . . so it is not just ; you can not
> > afford a Cadillac but you are not even getting a Ford or Chevy . . i.e.,
> > the gain of a 5 element yagi on 435 mhz . . . that is the issue, not cost
> > alone . . . . . . same comments apply to the ELK but I have attempted to
> > make the point that there is a minimum performance for a certain number of
> > elements that is pretty OBJECTIVE and when it is not met . . . . well
> > that is my point . . . these two antennas have shown to some testers that
> > they do not measure up to the minimum EXPECTATIONS . . .unfortunately that
> > is acceptable to some . . . . then it becomes acceptable to many . . .
> > and objectivity is abandoned . . .
> >
> > Jim W9VNE
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Trey Brown"
> > To: "Jim Danehy"
> > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] ELK or ARROW
> >
> >
> >> Thanks for the comments. Realize, though, that not everyone wants or
> >> can afford to have the Cadillac.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Jim Danehy wrote:
> >>> the Arrow antenna has been critiqued by Kent Britain, WA5VJB
> >>>
> >>> http://wa5vjb.com/references/Cheap%20Antennas-LEOs.pdf
> >>>
> >>> he says that some have measured the Arrow for gain on 435 mhz @ 4 dbi
> >>> (isotropic) . . . . and that further analysis showed that for the
> >>> element lengths used on 435 mhz that it peaks at 457 mhz and not 435 mhz
> >>> . . . Kent is a well respected VHF/UHF antenna person who has plenty of
> >>> credibility . . .
> >>>
> >>> Kent opines that the Arrow, as built does not have its elements
> >>> insulated from the boom. It uses dimensions for insulated elements . . .
> >>> so much for the Arrow . . . .
> >>>
> >>> Now for the ELK : a local friend of mine owns an Arrow and he uses it
> >>> successfully. He bought an ELK and attempted to compare the Arrow and
> >>> the ELK . . . . he could not make an across town QSO on 435 mhz from his
> >>> second story window with the ELK , so he sent the ELK back for a refund
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>> I have worked and exchanged QSLs with several hundred satellite users .
> >>> . .the majority of the folks that have worked and QSLed me (close to 250
> >>> + ) have been using either the Arrow or ELK based upon the information
> >>> on their cards. So they are popular. Are they optimum ? A lot of
> >>> anecdotal information would seem to say NO . . .
> >>>
> >>> Thirty-five years ago I worked Oscar 6 with a homebrew 2 mtr yagi that
> >>> probably was worse than either the Arrow or Elk but I worked YV and KL7
> >>> from Indiana on CW with about 15 watts to the 3 elements which my XYL
> >>> waved around at my directions . . . not any more . . .what do I use
> >>> these days : a pair of circular polarity yagis on 10 foot booms
> >>> manufactured by M Square . . . .
> >>>
> >>> Folks ask what should they buy ? Maybe a Ford or maybe a Chevy . . .
> >>> neither is a Cadillac . . . .
> >>>
> >>> Jim W9VNE
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> program!
> >>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Trey -- N5THX
> >>
> >> They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> >> safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
> >> - Benjamin Franklin
> >>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 03:30:35 +0000
From: n3tl@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Fw: ELK or ARROW
To: kc6uqh@xxx.xxxx "'Jim Danehy'" <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>,
<amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID:
<122820080330.10188.4956F2DB00013CD2000027CC22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C
04040A0DBF049BCC02@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
Mr. Mc Bride,
Thank you for this post. It led me to a Google search, which provide a great
starting point to go along with Item No. 3 in your post. It is:
http://www.dxzone.com/catalog/Software/Antenna_analysis/
Thank you again,
Tim - N3TL
-------------- Original message from "Art McBride" <kc6uqh@xxx.xxx>: ---------
-----
> To All,
> 1. Amateur Radio is learning by doing.
> 2. A large amount of data on Yagi type antennas exists, easily found, and is
> well proven.
> 3. Several design programs for antennas exist reducing construction time and
> waist of materials.
> 4. Equipment to measure comparative antenna performance at VHF/UHF
> frequencies is not hard to find.
>
> Why do we line the pockets of some poorly designed antenna manufacturing
> companies instead of learning how and making the best performing antennas
> for our own use? If we do not learn these skills, no one will be left to
> teach and the skills will be lost.
>
> There are many older Amateurs willing to teach those that want to learn, and
> hopefully many of those wanting to learn are at least one half of the age of
> those who can teach!
>
> Art,
> KC6UQH
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On
> Behalf Of Jim Danehy
> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:33 PM
> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Fw: ELK or ARROW
>
>
> . there is the old adage that you get what you pay for . . . why buy a
> poorly designed antenna that does not work very well
> > ?
> >
> > If you have a 5 element yagi that only produces 4 dbi you are not getting
>
> > what you paid for . . . most 2 element yagis would out perform that
> > statistic . . . a 5 element yagi should be at least 9 db + or 10 db dbd
> > (dipole ) not isotropic . . . . there is something that is called
> > MERCHANTABILITY . . .i.e., an IMPLIED WARRANTY that you are getting at
> > least the minimum for your money . . .
> > 4 dbi for an Arrow is way off base . . . so it is not just ; you can not
> > afford a Cadillac but you are not even getting a Ford or Chevy . . i.e.,
>
> > the gain of a 5 element yagi on 435 mhz . . . that is the issue, not cost
>
> > alone . . . . . . same comments apply to the ELK but I have attempted to
> > make the point that there is a minimum performance for a certain number of
>
> > elements that is pretty OBJECTIVE and when it is not met . . . . well
> > that is my point . . . these two antennas have shown to some testers that
> > they do not measure up to the minimum EXPECTATIONS . . .unfortunately that
>
> > is acceptable to some . . . . then it becomes acceptable to many . . .
> > and objectivity is abandoned . . .
> >
> > Jim W9VNE
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Trey Brown"
> > To: "Jim Danehy"
> > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] ELK or ARROW
> >
> >
> >> Thanks for the comments. Realize, though, that not everyone wants or
> >> can afford to have the Cadillac.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Jim Danehy wrote:
> >>> the Arrow antenna has been critiqued by Kent Britain, WA5VJB
> >>>
> >>> http://wa5vjb.com/references/Cheap%20Antennas-LEOs.pdf
> >>>
> >>> he says that some have measured the Arrow for gain on 435 mhz @ 4 dbi
> >>> (isotropic) . . . . and that further analysis showed that for the
> >>> element lengths used on 435 mhz that it peaks at 457 mhz and not 435 mhz
>
> >>> . . . Kent is a well respected VHF/UHF antenna person who has plenty of
> >>> credibility . . .
> >>>
> >>> Kent opines that the Arrow, as built does not have its elements
> >>> insulated from the boom. It uses dimensions for insulated elements . . .
>
> >>> so much for the Arrow . . . .
> >>>
> >>> Now for the ELK : a local friend of mine owns an Arrow and he uses it
> >>> successfully. He bought an ELK and attempted to compare the Arrow and
> >>> the ELK . . . . he could not make an across town QSO on 435 mhz from his
>
> >>> second story window with the ELK , so he sent the ELK back for a refund
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>> I have worked and exchanged QSLs with several hundred satellite users .
> >>> . .the majority of the folks that have worked and QSLed me (close to 250
>
> >>> + ) have been using either the Arrow or ELK based upon the information
> >>> on their cards. So they are popular. Are they optimum ? A lot of
> >>> anecdotal information would seem to say NO . . .
> >>>
> >>> Thirty-five years ago I worked Oscar 6 with a homebrew 2 mtr yagi that
> >>> probably was worse than either the Arrow or Elk but I worked YV and KL7
> >>> from Indiana on CW with about 15 watts to the 3 elements which my XYL
> >>> waved around at my directions . . . not any more . . .what do I use
> >>> these days : a pair of circular polarity yagis on 10 foot booms
> >>> manufactured by M Square . . . .
> >>>
> >>> Folks ask what should they buy ? Maybe a Ford or maybe a Chevy . . .
> >>> neither is a Cadillac . . . .
> >>>
> >>> Jim W9VNE
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> program!
> >>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Trey -- N5THX
> >>
> >> They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> >> safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
> >> - Benjamin Franklin
> >>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 3719 (20081227) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 3719 (20081227) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:31:40 -0800 (PST)
From: WILLIAMS MICHAEL <k9qho6762@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Delfi C3 status?
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxxx KB2HSH@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <569909.6669.qm@xxxxxxxx.xxxx.xxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
The packet data downlink is presently operational at 145.870. It is extremely
strong from AOS/LOS.
?
When the amateur transponder is activated, A CW beacon will be at 145.870 in
place of the packet data signal. It sends "HI HI DELFIC3 in CW."
?
I recently emailed wouterw@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx when the satellite would be put
back into the amateur mode.?I have received no reply.
?
It's the holidays at the university so I really do not expect an answer at
this point in time?so maybe after the new year.
?
Unlike just after launch when transponder signals were strong, I have recently
been having difficulty getting a signal through the transponder. I would like
to experiment more so I'm waiting and hoping.
?
All the best,
?
Mike (K9QHO)
AMSAT 33589
?
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:58:26 -0500
From: Sebastian <w4as@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Portable Satellite LOTW
To: AMSAT BB <AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <152BB2A7-99EA-4894-B37D-F1EF4ACB4D4C@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Logbook of the World doesn't support grid squares, or VUCC if that is
what you are intending to do.
73 de W4AS
Sebastian
On Dec 27, 2008, at 4:29 PM, Gary Joe Mayfield wrote:
> Has anyone mastered putting records of portable satellite operations
> into
> Log Book of The World? I would like to give folks credit for the
> Grids I
> worked them from, but how to do this is not obvious.
>
>
>
> 73,
>
> Joe kk0sd
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:17:47 -0600
From: "Gary \"Joe\" Mayfield" <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Fw: ELK or ARROW
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <COL0-DAV28632414F509069F8CCD918AE90@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Has anyone played with insulating the Arrow elements from the boom? It
shouldn't be too hard to do.
73,
Joe kk0sd
-----Original Message-----
From: amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On
Behalf Of Jim Danehy
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:33 PM
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Fw: ELK or ARROW
there is the old adage that you get what you pay for . . . why buy a
poorly designed antenna that does not work very well
> ?
>
> If you have a 5 element yagi that only produces 4 dbi you are not getting
> what you paid for . . . most 2 element yagis would out perform that
> statistic . . . a 5 element yagi should be at least 9 db + or 10 db dbd
> (dipole ) not isotropic . . . . there is something that is called
> MERCHANTABILITY . . .i.e., an IMPLIED WARRANTY that you are getting at
> least the minimum for your money . . .
> 4 dbi for an Arrow is way off base . . . so it is not just ; you can not
> afford a Cadillac but you are not even getting a Ford or Chevy . . i.e.,
> the gain of a 5 element yagi on 435 mhz . . . that is the issue, not cost
> alone . . . . . . same comments apply to the ELK but I have attempted to
> make the point that there is a minimum performance for a certain number of
> elements that is pretty OBJECTIVE and when it is not met . . . . well
> that is my point . . . these two antennas have shown to some testers that
> they do not measure up to the minimum EXPECTATIONS . . .unfortunately that
> is acceptable to some . . . . then it becomes acceptable to many . . .
> and objectivity is abandoned . . .
>
> Jim W9VNE
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Trey Brown" <palintheus@xxxxx.xxx>
> To: "Jim Danehy" <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>
> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] ELK or ARROW
>
>
>> Thanks for the comments. Realize, though, that not everyone wants or
>> can afford to have the Cadillac.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Jim Danehy <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
>>> the Arrow antenna has been critiqued by Kent Britain, WA5VJB
>>>
>>> http://wa5vjb.com/references/Cheap%20Antennas-LEOs.pdf
>>>
>>> he says that some have measured the Arrow for gain on 435 mhz @ 4 dbi
>>> (isotropic) . . . . and that further analysis showed that for the
>>> element lengths used on 435 mhz that it peaks at 457 mhz and not 435 mhz
>>> . . . Kent is a well respected VHF/UHF antenna person who has plenty of
>>> credibility . . .
>>>
>>> Kent opines that the Arrow, as built does not have its elements
>>> insulated from the boom. It uses dimensions for insulated elements . . .
>>> so much for the Arrow . . . .
>>>
>>> Now for the ELK : a local friend of mine owns an Arrow and he uses it
>>> successfully. He bought an ELK and attempted to compare the Arrow and
>>> the ELK . . . . he could not make an across town QSO on 435 mhz from his
>>> second story window with the ELK , so he sent the ELK back for a refund
>>> .
>>>
>>> I have worked and exchanged QSLs with several hundred satellite users .
>>> . .the majority of the folks that have worked and QSLed me (close to 250
>>> + ) have been using either the Arrow or ELK based upon the information
>>> on their cards. So they are popular. Are they optimum ? A lot of
>>> anecdotal information would seem to say NO . . .
>>>
>>> Thirty-five years ago I worked Oscar 6 with a homebrew 2 mtr yagi that
>>> probably was worse than either the Arrow or Elk but I worked YV and KL7
>>> from Indiana on CW with about 15 watts to the 3 elements which my XYL
>>> waved around at my directions . . . not any more . . .what do I use
>>> these days : a pair of circular polarity yagis on 10 foot booms
>>> manufactured by M Square . . . .
>>>
>>> Folks ask what should they buy ? Maybe a Ford or maybe a Chevy . . .
>>> neither is a Cadillac . . . .
>>>
>>> Jim W9VNE
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Trey -- N5THX
>>
>> They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
>> safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
>> - Benjamin Franklin
>>
>
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:42:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Jerzycke <kq6ea@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Fw: ELK or ARROW
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxxx Gary Joe Mayfield <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <825429.32103.qm@xxxxxxxx.xxxx.xxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Or you can just lengthen them 1/4" on a side with a threaded spacer....
Jim KQ6EA
--- On Sat, 12/27/08, Gary "Joe" Mayfield <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> From: Gary "Joe" Mayfield <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Fw: ELK or ARROW
> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 8:17 PM
> Has anyone played with insulating the Arrow elements from
> the boom? It
> shouldn't be too hard to do.
>
> 73,
> Joe kk0sd
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx
> [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On
> Behalf Of Jim Danehy
> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:33 PM
> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Fw: ELK or ARROW
>
>
> there is the old adage that you get what you pay for . .
> . why buy a
> poorly designed antenna that does not work very well
> > ?
> >
> > If you have a 5 element yagi that only produces 4 dbi
> you are not getting
>
> > what you paid for . . . most 2 element yagis would out
> perform that
> > statistic . . . a 5 element yagi should be at least 9
> db + or 10 db dbd
> > (dipole ) not isotropic . . . . there is something
> that is called
> > MERCHANTABILITY . . .i.e., an IMPLIED WARRANTY that
> you are getting at
> > least the minimum for your money . . .
> > 4 dbi for an Arrow is way off base . . . so it is not
> just ; you can not
> > afford a Cadillac but you are not even getting a Ford
> or Chevy . . i.e.,
>
> > the gain of a 5 element yagi on 435 mhz . . . that is
> the issue, not cost
>
> > alone . . . . . . same comments apply to the ELK but I
> have attempted to
> > make the point that there is a minimum performance for
> a certain number of
>
> > elements that is pretty OBJECTIVE and when it is not
> met . . . . well
> > that is my point . . . these two antennas have shown
> to some testers that
> > they do not measure up to the minimum EXPECTATIONS . .
> .unfortunately that
>
> > is acceptable to some . . . . then it becomes
> acceptable to many . . .
> > and objectivity is abandoned . . .
> >
> > Jim W9VNE
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Trey Brown"
> <palintheus@xxxxx.xxx>
> > To: "Jim Danehy"
> <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] ELK or ARROW
> >
> >
> >> Thanks for the comments. Realize, though, that not
> everyone wants or
> >> can afford to have the Cadillac.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Jim Danehy
> <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
> >>> the Arrow antenna has been critiqued by Kent
> Britain, WA5VJB
> >>>
> >>>
> http://wa5vjb.com/references/Cheap%20Antennas-LEOs.pdf
> >>>
> >>> he says that some have measured the Arrow for
> gain on 435 mhz @ 4 dbi
> >>> (isotropic) . . . . and that further analysis
> showed that for the
> >>> element lengths used on 435 mhz that it peaks
> at 457 mhz and not 435 mhz
>
> >>> . . . Kent is a well respected VHF/UHF antenna
> person who has plenty of
> >>> credibility . . .
> >>>
> >>> Kent opines that the Arrow, as built does not
> have its elements
> >>> insulated from the boom. It uses dimensions
> for insulated elements . . .
>
> >>> so much for the Arrow . . . .
> >>>
> >>> Now for the ELK : a local friend of mine owns
> an Arrow and he uses it
> >>> successfully. He bought an ELK and attempted
> to compare the Arrow and
> >>> the ELK . . . . he could not make an across
> town QSO on 435 mhz from his
>
> >>> second story window with the ELK , so he sent
> the ELK back for a refund
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>> I have worked and exchanged QSLs with several
> hundred satellite users .
> >>> . .the majority of the folks that have worked
> and QSLed me (close to 250
>
> >>> + ) have been using either the Arrow or ELK
> based upon the information
> >>> on their cards. So they are popular. Are they
> optimum ? A lot of
> >>> anecdotal information would seem to say NO . .
> .
> >>>
> >>> Thirty-five years ago I worked Oscar 6 with a
> homebrew 2 mtr yagi that
> >>> probably was worse than either the Arrow or
> Elk but I worked YV and KL7
> >>> from Indiana on CW with about 15 watts to the
> 3 elements which my XYL
> >>> waved around at my directions . . . not any
> more . . .what do I use
> >>> these days : a pair of circular polarity yagis
> on 10 foot booms
> >>> manufactured by M Square . . . .
> >>>
> >>> Folks ask what should they buy ? Maybe a Ford
> or maybe a Chevy . . .
> >>> neither is a Cadillac . . . .
> >>>
> >>> Jim W9VNE
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions
> expressed are those of the author.
> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support
> the amateur satellite
> >>> program!
> >>> Subscription settings:
> http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Trey -- N5THX
> >>
> >> They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a
> little temporary
> >> safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
> >> - Benjamin Franklin
> >>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those
> of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
> satellite program!
> Subscription settings:
> http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those
> of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
> satellite program!
> Subscription settings:
> http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 23:26:14 -0600
From: "Gary \"Joe\" Mayfield" <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] More LOTW stuff
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <COL0-DAV132850B6D92DAA75F96FC18AE90@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Is there any interest in entering QSOs before 2003 (2003 is a natural break
in my logs) in Log Book of the World?
73,
Joe kk0sd
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:04:10 -0800
From: Clint Bradford <clintbrad4d@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Arrow vs. Elk
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <7AF2D776-BDDB-4A41-B4F8-DE05723F1572@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> ... the Arrow, as built does not have its elements insulated from
> the boom. It uses dimensions for insulated elements . . . so much
> for the Arrow . . . .
This is a case of where "engineering mentality" and "first-hand,
practical experiences" are colliding.
When I was selling these for HRO, a gentleman brought his back one
day. "This can NOT work," he exclaimed. "It is designed all wrong ...
" I refunded his money, and bought the antenna for a backup for
myself. I am using it to this day, successfully working the FM sats
with 1.5-to-2.5W TX power.
So much for the Arrow, indeed ... (grin)
Clint Bradford, K6LCS / KAF3359
909-241-7666
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 00:23:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "David Donaldson" <wb7dru@xxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Fw: ELK or ARROW
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <000001c968b4$d9b92000$01fea8c0@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The issue is really application of the antenna. A poor antenna in this case
is using one where it's not designed for. Just because something costs less
does not mean it will NOT work in the application you have for it (double
negative). For example a high gain boom antenna will work poorly as a
handheld antenna due to it narrow beamwidth and in ability to point at
target.
Case in point, we can all drive Suburban's because there is 10" of snow on
the ground but why? A Camry will work just as well if all I need is to
travel main highways.
I know that based on using the Arrow holding by hand it is better then a
dipole so it at least better then about 2.15dbi and using it I know that I
can get at least twice the RX power when pointed down it's boresite so it's
about 3db of gain over the dipole (0 dBd). That would make it ABOUT 5 db.
I would like to see the plots of the patterns of the tests done on the
arrow, also what the range looked like and equipment used. I have seen
commercial antenna companies' mess up antenna measurements. Properly done
engineering tests will align with what is experienced in the field, if it
doesn't then its an oops. 4dBi would mean not much better then a wet
noodle....
Point: The arrow works well for its application and is worth the money if
your application is a handheld or simple tripod mounted antenna. I say it's
is worth the money because it works.
73,
Dave
Burnsville, MN
WB7DRU; NNN0AXK
-----Original Message-----
From: amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On
Behalf Of Jim Danehy
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:35 PM
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Fw: ELK or ARROW
. there is the old adage that you get what you pay for . . . why buy a
poorly designed antenna that does not work very well
> ?
>
> If you have a 5 element yagi that only produces 4 dbi you are not getting
> what you paid for . . . most 2 element yagis would out perform that
> statistic . . . a 5 element yagi should be at least 9 db + or 10 db dbd
> (dipole ) not isotropic . . . . there is something that is called
> MERCHANTABILITY . . .i.e., an IMPLIED WARRANTY that you are getting at
> least the minimum for your money . . .
> 4 dbi for an Arrow is way off base . . . so it is not just ; you can not
> afford a Cadillac but you are not even getting a Ford or Chevy . . i.e.,
> the gain of a 5 element yagi on 435 mhz . . . that is the issue, not cost
> alone . . . . . . same comments apply to the ELK but I have attempted to
> make the point that there is a minimum performance for a certain number of
> elements that is pretty OBJECTIVE and when it is not met . . . . well
> that is my point . . . these two antennas have shown to some testers that
> they do not measure up to the minimum EXPECTATIONS . . .unfortunately that
> is acceptable to some . . . . then it becomes acceptable to many . . .
> and objectivity is abandoned . . .
>
> Jim W9VNE
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Trey Brown" <palintheus@xxxxx.xxx>
> To: "Jim Danehy" <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx>
> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] ELK or ARROW
>
>
>> Thanks for the comments. Realize, though, that not everyone wants or
>> can afford to have the Cadillac.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Jim Danehy <jdanehy@xxxxx.xx.xxx> wrote:
>>> the Arrow antenna has been critiqued by Kent Britain, WA5VJB
>>>
>>> http://wa5vjb.com/references/Cheap%20Antennas-LEOs.pdf
>>>
>>> he says that some have measured the Arrow for gain on 435 mhz @ 4 dbi
>>> (isotropic) . . . . and that further analysis showed that for the
>>> element lengths used on 435 mhz that it peaks at 457 mhz and not 435 mhz
>>> . . . Kent is a well respected VHF/UHF antenna person who has plenty of
>>> credibility . . .
>>>
>>> Kent opines that the Arrow, as built does not have its elements
>>> insulated from the boom. It uses dimensions for insulated elements . . .
>>> so much for the Arrow . . . .
>>>
>>> Now for the ELK : a local friend of mine owns an Arrow and he uses it
>>> successfully. He bought an ELK and attempted to compare the Arrow and
>>> the ELK . . . . he could not make an across town QSO on 435 mhz from his
>>> second story window with the ELK , so he sent the ELK back for a refund
>>> .
>>>
>>> I have worked and exchanged QSLs with several hundred satellite users .
>>> . .the majority of the folks that have worked and QSLed me (close to 250
>>> + ) have been using either the Arrow or ELK based upon the information
>>> on their cards. So they are popular. Are they optimum ? A lot of
>>> anecdotal information would seem to say NO . . .
>>>
>>> Thirty-five years ago I worked Oscar 6 with a homebrew 2 mtr yagi that
>>> probably was worse than either the Arrow or Elk but I worked YV and KL7
>>> from Indiana on CW with about 15 watts to the 3 elements which my XYL
>>> waved around at my directions . . . not any more . . .what do I use
>>> these days : a pair of circular polarity yagis on 10 foot booms
>>> manufactured by M Square . . . .
>>>
>>> Folks ask what should they buy ? Maybe a Ford or maybe a Chevy . . .
>>> neither is a Cadillac . . . .
>>>
>>> Jim W9VNE
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Trey -- N5THX
>>
>> They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
>> safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
>> - Benjamin Franklin
>>
>
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
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