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CX2SA > SATDIG 25.09.12 03:25l 1042 Lines 46868 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat (Gus 8P6SM)
2. Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat (Gus 8P6SM)
3. Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
(Gus 8P6SM)
4. Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
(Bob- W7LRD)
5. Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat (Andrew Glasbrenner)
6. I have the answer! (K4FEG)
7. Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
(Gus 8P6SM)
8. Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat (Andrew Glasbrenner)
9. Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat (Gus 8P6SM)
10. Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
(B J)
11. Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
(Jim Jerzycke)
12. Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue 312)
(R Oler)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:06:41 -0400
From: Gus 8P6SM <8p6sm@xxxx.xxx>
To: John Spasojevich <johnag9d@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat
Message-ID: <5060E781.70108@xxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 09/24/2012 04:22 PM, John Spasojevich wrote:
> Well Gus, I'm guessing you read Barry's comments regarding launch cost.
I did, and the number is exactly what I previously thought it was.
> So write the check and we'll be ready.
Believe you me, if I had the cash, I would do exactly that.
> By the time $10M is raised, the cost will have tripled.
Well, that depends upon how fast it is raised. How much have we raised
so far? In the nearly twelve years since the last HEO launch?
> We are talking about hams, not sure how their wallets are where you are
> but here in the states, if something is listed at 50 cents they'll try
> and screw you down to 5.
Same here. But we will still pay 10 grand for a rig if we really want
to. Isn't it the same where you live? It's the bread and water
principle. You eat bread and water, and save up for what you want.
Enough bread and water and you can afford anything! :-)
> So good luck raising that kind of cash in the a reasonable amount of
> time. Until a school or someone else needs a HEO bird, the path is
> pretty clear for now.
One way to make sure that you never raise the funds is to keep saying
"We can't afford it!" and never save up.
I seem to have given the impression that I am against LEO birds. I am
not. As it happens, I believe that HEO birds are better. In that they
generally offer more facilities for hams generally, and my selfish,
ragchewing, DX-chasing butt in particular. Where I live, LEO satellites
mostly give me an opportunity to make contact with fish, swimming in the
mid Atlantic. So yes, I have a preference for HEO satellites.
But I'm not against LEO birds per se. I AM against any satellite, HEO
or LEO, that uses our frequencies as a free alternative to the "Space
Research Band" and GIVE NOTHING BACK IN RETURN. Neither a functioning
transponder that hams can use, nor a financial donation towards the
launch of a bird of our own. Not even, in most cases, research of
particular interest to the broader ham community.
As for paying for an HEO launch, I can't afford to cough up that much.
I can't even afford to cough up 1% of the required sum towards a launch
fund. Even 0.1% would be a financial strain, but it might be doable.
As it turns out there IS no launch fund for any HEO satellite for me to
contribute to.
--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:22:13 -0400
From: Gus 8P6SM <8p6sm@xxxx.xxx>
To: Andrew Glasbrenner <glasbrenner@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Cc: "amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxxx <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat
Message-ID: <5060EB25.7030901@xxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 09/24/2012 04:07 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
>>
>> Yes, I think it would, as a reasonable compromise. In fact, maybe we
>> should PROVIDE them with a working comms board that gives them the data
>> pathways they need to fulfill their experimental needs AND at the same
>> time provides US with something that provides OUR needs.
>>
>> It seems the entire focus these days is upon leveraging educational
>> opportunities. The theory goes, as I understand it: Since we can't
>> afford to pay for a launch of our own, we COOPERATE with educational
>> institutions (who do seem able to get launches) to provide useable
>> frequencies -- and potentially a global network of groundstations --
>> IN EXCHANGE for some sort of communications functionality that can be
>> used BY US.
>>
>
> We could even call it AMSAT Fox! And take donations on the front page
> of the website via PayPal! And use the same avionics on projects with
> other entities, and apply for free educational launches!
Excellent idea! When do we start? Because it seems there are a LOT of
birds up there that DON'T actually give anything back. What ratio of
satellites that DON'T to satellites that DO must we reach, before
someone points out that it is in fact, no longer our band?
More seriously: I see the FOX PayPal applet saying a little under $7.5k
at the present. How long has it taken to raise that amount? How much
do we actually need? Or to get to the crux of the matter, at the
current rate, when will we hit the required target, in comparison to
when we need to pay for the launch?
--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:36:44 -0400
From: Gus 8P6SM <8p6sm@xxxx.xxx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7,
Issue 312)
Message-ID: <5060EE8C.9000502@xxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 09/24/2012 03:47 PM, Barry Baines wrote:
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312
> From: Mark Spencer<mspencer12345@xxxxxxxx>
> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.ca;
s=s1024;t=1348432005;
bh=80uPIe5CmB8SGZ5MZxoULRcCEHpTMj/CnSBzOEshbmE=;h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Maile
r:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Conten
t-Transfer-Encoding;b=2XqW1uQOnVUxJ6VdnkvH2vSdsHvVxS0N6ibnK0WcxjQsYwAy1kZl9/g9
BcIjf18lHjHTX602nnlh9yI2ATubVWyTeGJoAUbCF6x87XHC6fUzr34EXU814LLgA1hzHDyF7qMfKu
TO8AgCf0eM7sUyGNkaG3XbGRGOyeQvIJ+okeE=
> Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch costs
be
> for a P3E class satellite ?
>
> Regards
> Mark Spencer
> VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: )
> Mark:
>
> Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching
a satellite into a Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight
of Eagle or P3-E was $8 million. Today that figure is more like $10
million, though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more
accurate figure than this. Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things
prohibitively expensive. Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the
spacecraft itself) is not viewed as viable given the results of our past
fund raising efforts.
>
> The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40. Please keep in mind that the
money that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for
P3-D/AO-40, from 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from
individual donors, ARRL matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc. Other
organizations, such as AMSAT-DL and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising
efforts as well in support of those aspects of the program that they were
handling. AMSAT also developed the SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as
part of P3-D program that became the "frame" that housed P3-D on the launch
vehicle. At that time, we believe we had pretty much "maxed out" what might
be raised from within the amateur radio community in North America.
Unfortunately, that considerable fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of
the current launch costs. Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur
radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires both
a non-amateur radio "vision" to what a HEO sa
t!
> ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs) as well as a "Case for
Support" that would attract major donors, such as foundations. To date, we
have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these expectations.
>
> Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major
inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself
(though that also costs "real money" depending upon size and features and
whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with
P3-D).
>
> So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what
AMSAT might be able to "afford" under current circumstances:
>
> The cost to launch a "microsat" (e.g. a 9" x 9" x 9" structure such as
AO-51) was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00. That is why we opted
for a 1u cubesat (4" x 4" x 4") back in 2008 as replacement satellite for
AO-51-- we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at
the time and the concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a
launch that would likely increase in cost of time.
>
> To put this further in perspective, as I recall, back in 2008 the cost to
launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO. The
current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg).
The doubling of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in
cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and
others who have "real money" to place cubesat payloads in LEO. Clearly, as
Tony, AA2TX (AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has
evolved from a university "novelty" to a standard spacecraft specification.
This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in
2011 (we were selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for
ELaNA grants in order to be able to "afford" launches. Clearly, it make
much more sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft
development rather than launches if we can get "others" to support our
launch costs.
>
> BTW, "Aviation Week& Space Technology Magazine" had a series of articles
in the 30 JUL 12 issue ("Small Satellites: Doing More with Less") which
highlights this evolution, including cubesats, such as TechEdSat that will
be the first US cubesat to be deployed from the ISS using the same
deployment scheme (JEM-SSOD or Small Satellite Orbital Deployer) as the
Vietnamese student F-1 cubesat that will be deployed this week.
Information about TechEdSat may be found here:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/TechEdSat.html
>
> Coupled with the launch costs is the "justification" for launches. NASA
and others (such as the National Science Foundation) will support launch
opportunities if the proposal meets THEIR strategic goals. Consequently,
the most effective way to "hitch a ride" is to put something in an amateur
radio space frame that meets their expectations, such as a
scientific/educational payload and/or provide "educational outreach." For
example:
>
> 1. ARISSat-1/Kedr deployed by RSC/Energia from the ISS in August 2011
with a student scientific payload developed by Kursk State University.
AMSAT developed ground based software to capture telemetry from both the
satellite and the payload, with amateurs forwarding captured data to a
central server. ARISSat-1/Kedr was considered to be a "prototype" for
deploying student payloads. Education outreach was also part of our efforts
with ARISSat-1, where, for example, telemetry data is available for student
analysis. Whether there are future opportunities for more ARISSat
deployments remains to be seen.
>
> 2. AMSAT-UK developed FunCube (funcube.org.uk) under the model where
educational outreach is the justification (to be launched in 2013). The
satellite has received financial support from the Radio Communications
Foundation and is being developed in collaboration with ISIS-Innovative
Solutions in Space BV (a Dutch small satellite company that is a spin-off
from Delft University of Technology). AMSAT-UK is developing ground-based
software with an easy-to-use receiver (FunCube Dongle developed by Howard
Long, G6LVB) to encourage use of the satellite in the classroom.
>
> 3. FOX-1 will have a student scientific payload (MEMS Gyro originally
developed by Penn State-Erie students) as justification for NASA to pay for
our launch under the ELaNA grant. Ground-based software for capture of
satellite telemetry and payload data is also being developed using a central
server for data to be forwarded. AMSAT is also focused on creating
education outreach materials focused on Fox-1 that will be appropriate for
future missions as well.
>
> 4. The appointment of Mark Hammond, N8MH as AMSAT's VP-Educational
Relations and the subsequent work that he is doing to develop relationships
with outside organizations (including ARRL and NASA Education), develop an
"educational outreach" capability in support of AMSAT's scientific and
education mission, and work to foster support of "STEM" (Science,
Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) as part of more traditional
engineering work on space craft is in recognition of the fact that we are
dependent upon the support of other organizations to be able to afford to
fly. "Education outreach" is the new "cost" (one that AMSAT can hopefully
"afford") that we must bear to keep amateur radio in space.
>
> Clearly, it is launch costs that is driving much of what AMSAT can afford
to accomplish. In addition, we must recognize that those that pay for the
launch will only do so if the satellite provides a benefit that meets their
goals/expectations. Clearly, future opportunities for placing amateur
radio transponders in HEO will be dependent upon finding partners who have a
need to place THEIR payload(s) in those orbits AND have the major funding to
support the launch. In essence, that is what AMSAT-DL attempted to do by
persuading the German government to fund P3-E as part of a larger mission to
Mars. Unfortunately, their attempts did not pan out.
>
> BTW, we'd be happy to accept your $44.00 to renew your AMSAT membership;
you can renew online at www.amsat.org... ;-)
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Barry Baines, WD4ASW
> President-AMSAT
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
Barry, I truly welcome the launch of 1.) ARISSat-1, 2.) FunCube and also
3.) FOX-1. Can you give me an idea when 4.) Mark Hammond, N8MH will be
launched, and what amateur capability he will host while in orbit? :-)
Jokes aside, I am happy to see ham satellites carry educational
packages. But I want to see amateur packages as well (as per 1, 2 and 3
above). Satellites that carry ONLY educational packages and NO ham
packages are of no particular interest to me, since I am a ham and not a
student. What concerns me is this: As more satellites carry
education-only packages, the harder it becomes to 'sell' the idea that
an amateur package should be included. How will you answer when someone
says "The last ten satellites carried no amateur package. Why should we?"
--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 23:44:56 +0000 (UTC)
From: Bob- W7LRD <w7lrd@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: "Trevor ." <m5aka@xxxxx.xx.xx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7,
Issue 312)
Message-ID:
<835065115.10741.1348530296912.JavaMail.root@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxx.xx.xxxx.xxxxxx
x.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
What if we convince a consortium of educational institutions they need a
HEO. Do educational institutions have to pay the going rate?
73 Bob W7LRD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trevor ." <m5aka@xxxxx.xx.xx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 2:18:29 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7, Issue
312)
> Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur radio community
> to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires
> both a non-amateur radio "vision" to what a HEO satellite
> would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs) as well as a
> "Case for Support" that would attract major donors,
> such as foundations.
Very well put Barry.
If we look at the Kickstarter site we can see satellite projects that
between them have raised almost $300,000 yet the online Fundraising by the
projects took just 30 days.
ArduSat - $106,330
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/575960623/ardusat-your-arduino-experiment-
in-space
KickSat - $74,587
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zacinaction/kicksat-your-personal-spacecra
ft-in-space
SkyCube - $116,890
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/880837561/skycube-the-first-satellite-laun
ched-by-you
None of the individuals involved in those projects has any previous track
record in building and launching satellites, yet lots of people were happy
to back them with hard cash.
How is it people with no proven track record can so easily raise such sums
of money ?
It's down to communications, they actively sought to engage with people and
involve them in what they were doing.
I think there's something we can learn here.
Across the world millions of people are keen on space and would love to be
involved in a space project, even if it's just donating $25 to it - We need
to reach out to them.
73 Trevor M5AKA
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 20:00:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Andrew Glasbrenner <glasbrenner@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
To: Gus 8P6SM <8p6sm@xxxx.xxx>
Cc: "amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxxx <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat
Message-ID:
<9616431.1348531258626.JavaMail.root@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx.xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>someone points out that it is in fact, no longer our band?
>
70cm is a shared band, and is where the bulk of the cubes go. Amateur radio
is a secondary user. Were the satellites (at least from the US) to apply for
a part 5 experimental license, they could and would use the exact same
frequencies. In fact, it's happened already. It's a moot point about "our
band" vs. "their band". We need to adapt or perish, as plain as that.
>More seriously: I see the FOX PayPal applet saying a little under $7.5k
>at the present. How long has it taken to raise that amount?
That portion of the funding dates from about when ARISSat reentered in
January, and we switched widgets to the current Fox one. More was raised
from direct mailings to members.
>How much
>do we actually need? Or to get to the crux of the matter, at the
>current rate, when will we hit the required target, in comparison to
>when we need to pay for the launch?
"We" have a subsidized launch already courtesy of NASA's ELANA program,
because of the educational aspect. Current estimate is late 2013, details to
be determined. Other flight opportunities for additional spacecraft are
pending. The funds being raised now go towards construction and other costs.
See http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/fox/ for more info.
All of this is regularly updated in letters and the Journal that go to
current paid members, as well as ANS and on the website.
73, Drew KO4MA
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:02:22 -0500
From: K4FEG <K4FEG@xxxxx.xxx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] I have the answer!
Message-ID: <5060F48E.8010805@xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
AMSAT needs to form a union, overpay it's employees, then the leadership
can tell the US government that if we don't get a massive infusion of
taxpayer dollars that AMSAT will have to file for bankruptcy, therefore
putting all of those high paid union employees out of a job, and as a
side bar we can tell them that we are doing solar panel research as well.
Hell with the way this president likes to throw money away, I figure
we'll have over $500,000,000.00 by election day(isn't that what they
gave that solar cell company a few months ago?)
You boy's at HQ gotta think outside the box! we could put transponder on
the moon with that kinda cash!
I think I'll go listen to some telemetry to soothe my jangled nerves!
See how easy that was to solve!
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 20:04:22 -0400
From: Gus 8P6SM <8p6sm@xxxx.xxx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7,
Issue 312)
Message-ID: <5060F506.10703@xxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 09/24/2012 05:18 PM, Trevor . wrote:
> If we look at the Kickstarter site we can see satellite projects that
> between them have raised almost $300,000 yet the online Fundraising
> by the projects took just 30 days.
Pity we can't obtain funding by the same means. It isn't as if we
wouldn't be able to include most of the functionality provided by these
satellites as part of a secondary payload.
--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 20:07:50 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Andrew Glasbrenner <glasbrenner@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
To: Gus 8P6SM <8p6sm@xxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat
Message-ID:
<10481562.1348531670867.JavaMail.root@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx.xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>As it turns out there IS no launch fund for any HEO satellite for me to
>contribute to.
Incorrect.
http://www.amsat-dl.org/index.php/spendendonations-topmenu-125
I've given to AMSAT-NA, -DL, and -UK, and am members of -NA and -UK. I'd be
a member of -DL, but my wife gets tired of me asking what this and that
means in Deutsch.
73, Drew KO4MA
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 20:28:24 -0400
From: Gus 8P6SM <8p6sm@xxxx.xxx>
To: Andrew Glasbrenner <glasbrenner@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Need your support to track F-1 CubeSat
Message-ID: <5060FAA8.3050105@xxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 09/24/2012 08:07 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote:
>> As it turns out there IS no launch fund for any HEO satellite for me to
>> contribute to.
>
> Incorrect.
>
> http://www.amsat-dl.org/index.php/spendendonations-topmenu-125
>
> I've given to AMSAT-NA, -DL, and -UK, and am members of -NA and -UK. I'd
> be a member of -DL, but my wife gets tired of me asking what this and
> that means in Deutsch.
>
> 73, Drew KO4MA
I will admit, I was speaking about AMSAT-NA specifically, but failed to
say so. I have also hesitated to join AMSAT-DL simply because I can't
understand the language. I've previously been a member of AMSAT-NA and
AMSAT-UK.
I am not averse to rejoining AMSAT-NA (because NA is closer to me than
UK) but frankly, I am not convinced that the policies being followed
will result in more/better/any satellites that I can actually use. As
has been pointed out here very recently, the new AMSAT-NA mission
statement does not even mention the word "communications".
--
73, de Gus 8P6SM
The Easternmost Isle
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 00:29:34 +0000
From: B J <va6bmj@xxxxx.xxx>
To: Bob- W7LRD <w7lrd@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7,
Issue 312)
Message-ID:
<CAP7QzkP+eEuNqPRJn6H5UtJSAyNBZumiW_fZpWSVirLDNiyQCA@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 9/24/12, Bob- W7LRD <w7lrd@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> What if we convince a consortium of educational institutions they need a
> HEO. Do educational institutions have to pay the going rate?
<snip>
If my alma mater is an indication, it might be a waste of time trying
to convince a lot of educational institutions to put anything into
orbit, let alone an amateur radio satellite.
Several years ago, I attended an alumni function hosted by the
department where I studied for my last 2 degrees (a master's in
electrical engineering and a Ph. D. in electrical and computer
engineering). I asked the chairman at the time why there was no
interest in amateur radio in the department, figuring that it has
covers many of the topics taught by the professors there plus it's a
fun activity in which the students could use the technical knowledge
that they learned.
His answer was along the lines of "no interest" or "not popular". In
other words, amateur radio doesn't bring in large research grants and
corresponding bragging rights which the department could use against
its competitors at other universities. Since it doesn't have the same
pizzazz as, say, nanotechnology or wearable computers, why bother?
Besides, isn't amateur radio obsolete technology? (Of course, it
didn't surprise me that he didn't know what D-STAR was.)
However, I'd bet if a "leading" university would get involved in
amateur radio satellites, a lot of engineering and physics departments
would be falling all over themselves trying to get one into orbit.
Meanwhile, my alma mater wonders why it's been years since I donated
any money....
73s
Bernhard VA6BMJ @ DO33FL
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 01:05:09 +0000
From: Jim Jerzycke <kq6ea@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7,
Issue 312)
Message-ID: <50610345.1050301@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
That would be the cost to fly as a secondary payload.
The bulk of the launch cost is paid by the primary payload, and that
currently runs anywhere from 90 million to 130 million, depending on
payload weight and desired orbit.
73, Jim KQ6EA
On 09/24/2012 08:04 PM, Mark L. Hammond wrote:
> At AMSAT-UK Colloquium last week, Peter said the current cost to HEO
> for P3E or something like it is curently $10 Million (and the joke
> was, pick your currency--it's about the same no matter what--US
> dollar, Euros, GBP, etc.--BIG money)
>
> So the number holds.
>
> Mark N8MH
>
> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Barry Baines <bbaines@xxx.xxx> wrote:
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312
>> From: Mark Spencer <mspencer12345@xxxxxxxx>
>> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
>> Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch
costs be
>> for a P3E class satellite ?
>>
>> Regards
>> Mark Spencer
>> VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: )
>> Mark:
>>
>> Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of launching
a satellite into a Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the size/weight
of Eagle or P3-E was $8 million. Today that figure is more like $10
million, though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more
accurate figure than this. Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things
prohibitively expensive. Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the
spacecraft itself) is not viewed as viable given the results of our past
fund raising efforts.
>>
>> The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40. Please keep in mind that the
money that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for
P3-D/AO-40, from 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from
individual donors, ARRL matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc. Other
organizations, such as AMSAT-DL and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising
efforts as well in support of those aspects of the program that they were
handling. AMSAT also developed the SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as
part of P3-D program that became the "frame" that housed P3-D on the launch
vehicle. At that time, we believe we had pretty much "maxed out" what might
be raised from within the amateur radio community in North America.
Unfortunately, that considerable fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of
the current launch costs. Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur
radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires both
a non-amateur radio "vision" to what a HEO !
s!
> at!
>> ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs) as well as a "Case for
Support" that would attract major donors, such as foundations. To date, we
have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these expectations.
>>
>> Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major
inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself
(though that also costs "real money" depending upon size and features and
whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with
P3-D).
>>
>> So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what
AMSAT might be able to "afford" under current circumstances:
>>
>> The cost to launch a "microsat" (e.g. a 9" x 9" x 9" structure such as
AO-51) was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00. That is why we opted
for a 1u cubesat (4" x 4" x 4") back in 2008 as replacement satellite for
AO-51-- we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at
the time and the concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a
launch that would likely increase in cost of time.
>>
>> To put this further in perspective, as I recall, back in 2008 the cost
to launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO. The
current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg).
The doubling of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in
cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and
others who have "real money" to place cubesat payloads in LEO. Clearly, as
Tony, AA2TX (AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has
evolved from a university "novelty" to a standard spacecraft specification.
This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in
2011 (we were selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for
ELaNA grants in order to be able to "afford" launches. Clearly, it make
much more sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft
development rather than launches if we can get "others" to support our
launch costs.
>>
>> BTW, "Aviation Week & Space Technology Magazine" had a series of articles
in the 30 JUL 12 issue ("Small Satellites: Doing More with Less") which
highlights this evolution, including cubesats, such as TechEdSat that will
be the first US cubesat to be deployed from the ISS using the same
deployment scheme (JEM-SSOD or Small Satellite Orbital Deployer) as the
Vietnamese student F-1 cubesat that will be deployed this week.
Information about TechEdSat may be found here:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/TechEdSat.html
>>
>> Coupled with the launch costs is the "justification" for launches. NASA
and others (such as the National Science Foundation) will support launch
opportunities if the proposal meets THEIR strategic goals. Consequently,
the most effective way to "hitch a ride" is to put something in an amateur
radio space frame that meets their expectations, such as a
scientific/educational payload and/or provide "educational outreach." For
example:
>>
>> 1. ARISSat-1/Kedr deployed by RSC/Energia from the ISS in August 2011
with a student scientific payload developed by Kursk State University.
AMSAT developed ground based software to capture telemetry from both the
satellite and the payload, with amateurs forwarding captured data to a
central server. ARISSat-1/Kedr was considered to be a "prototype" for
deploying student payloads. Education outreach was also part of our efforts
with ARISSat-1, where, for example, telemetry data is available for student
analysis. Whether there are future opportunities for more ARISSat
deployments remains to be seen.
>>
>> 2. AMSAT-UK developed FunCube (funcube.org.uk) under the model where
educational outreach is the justification (to be launched in 2013). The
satellite has received financial support from the Radio Communications
Foundation and is being developed in collaboration with ISIS-Innovative
Solutions in Space BV (a Dutch small satellite company that is a spin-off
from Delft University of Technology). AMSAT-UK is developing ground-based
software with an easy-to-use receiver (FunCube Dongle developed by Howard
Long, G6LVB) to encourage use of the satellite in the classroom.
>>
>> 3. FOX-1 will have a student scientific payload (MEMS Gyro originally
developed by Penn State-Erie students) as justification for NASA to pay for
our launch under the ELaNA grant. Ground-based software for capture of
satellite telemetry and payload data is also being developed using a central
server for data to be forwarded. AMSAT is also focused on creating
education outreach materials focused on Fox-1 that will be appropriate for
future missions as well.
>>
>> 4. The appointment of Mark Hammond, N8MH as AMSAT's VP-Educational
Relations and the subsequent work that he is doing to develop relationships
with outside organizations (including ARRL and NASA Education), develop an
"educational outreach" capability in support of AMSAT's scientific and
education mission, and work to foster support of "STEM" (Science,
Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) as part of more traditional
engineering work on space craft is in recognition of the fact that we are
dependent upon the support of other organizations to be able to afford to
fly. "Education outreach" is the new "cost" (one that AMSAT can hopefully
"afford") that we must bear to keep amateur radio in space.
>>
>> Clearly, it is launch costs that is driving much of what AMSAT can afford
to accomplish. In addition, we must recognize that those that pay for the
launch will only do so if the satellite provides a benefit that meets their
goals/expectations. Clearly, future opportunities for placing amateur
radio transponders in HEO will be dependent upon finding partners who have a
need to place THEIR payload(s) in those orbits AND have the major funding to
support the launch. In essence, that is what AMSAT-DL attempted to do by
persuading the German government to fund P3-E as part of a larger mission to
Mars. Unfortunately, their attempts did not pan out.
>>
>> BTW, we'd be happy to accept your $44.00 to renew your AMSAT membership;
you can renew online at www.amsat.org... ;-)
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> Barry Baines, WD4ASW
>> President-AMSAT
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:05:00 -0500
From: R Oler <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: <8p6sm@xxxx.xxx>, Amsat BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7,
Issue 312)
Message-ID: <COL106-W219A23E5FDC4C1204C7494D69D0@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
If AMSAT were given a "near free" launch by SpaceX or any of the other new
rocket folks there is nothing to put on the bird.
The Dragon launching to the space station Oct 7th is only carring 1000
pounds there is a lot of excess lift capability...nothing to put on it
Robert WB5MZO
> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:36:44 -0400
> From: 8p6sm@xxxx.xxx
> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Launch Costs (was-re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol. 7,
Issue 312)
>
> On 09/24/2012 03:47 PM, Barry Baines wrote:
> > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 312
> > From: Mark Spencer<mspencer12345@xxxxxxxx>
> > Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
> > DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.ca;
s=s1024;t=1348432005;
bh=80uPIe5CmB8SGZ5MZxoULRcCEHpTMj/CnSBzOEshbmE=;h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Maile
r:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Conten
t-Transfer-Encoding;b=2XqW1uQOnVUxJ6VdnkvH2vSdsHvVxS0N6ibnK0WcxjQsYwAy1kZl9/g9
BcIjf18lHjHTX602nnlh9yI2ATubVWyTeGJoAUbCF6x87XHC6fUzr34EXU814LLgA1hzHDyF7qMfKu
TO8AgCf0eM7sUyGNkaG3XbGRGOyeQvIJ+okeE=
> > Just out of curiosity what would a reasonable estimate of the launch
costs be
> > for a P3E class satellite ?
> >
> > Regards
> > Mark Spencer
> > VE7AFZ (long lapsed former AMSAT member (: )
> > Mark:
> >
> > Back in 2008 when we last seriously looked at this, the cost of
launching a satellite into a Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit (GTO) of the
size/weight of Eagle or P3-E was $8 million. Today that figure is more like
$10 million, though Peter, DB2OS (President of AMSAT-DL) probably has a more
accurate figure than this. Even so, the cost to launch is what makes things
prohibitively expensive. Raising that kind of money (plus the cost of the
spacecraft itself) is not viewed as viable given the results of our past
fund raising efforts.
> >
> > The last HEO launch was for P3-D/AO-40. Please keep in mind that the
money that was passed through AMSAT-NA totaled over $2 Million for
P3-D/AO-40, from 1993-2000 (seven years) with considerable help from
individual donors, ARRL matching donor program, AMSAT-UK, etc. Other
organizations, such as AMSAT-DL and JAMSAT also had their own fundraising
efforts as well in support of those aspects of the program that they were
handling. AMSAT also developed the SBS (Specific Bearing Structure) as
part of P3-D program that became the "frame" that housed P3-D on the launch
vehicle. At that time, we believe we had pretty much "maxed out" what might
be raised from within the amateur radio community in North America.
Unfortunately, that considerable fundraising effort wouldn't get us 20% of
the current launch costs. Clearly, we must expand beyond the amateur
radio community to raise funds of this magnitude, but to do so requires both
a non-amateur radio "vision" to what a HEO!
sa
> t!
> > ellite would provide (e.g. excite non-amateurs) as well as a "Case
for Support" that would attract major donors, such as foundations. To date,
we have not been able to put together a plan that would meet these
expectations.
> >
> > Needless-to-say, given today's costs, the launch economics is the major
inhibitor, and not necessarily the cost of building the satellite itself
(though that also costs "real money" depending upon size and features and
whether major systems, such as propulsion are donated as was the case with
P3-D).
> >
> > So, let's look deeper into the launch cost environment to determine what
AMSAT might be able to "afford" under current circumstances:
> >
> > The cost to launch a "microsat" (e.g. a 9" x 9" x 9" structure such as
AO-51) was estimated in 2008 to be around $350,000.00. That is why we opted
for a 1u cubesat (4" x 4" x 4") back in 2008 as replacement satellite for
AO-51-- we couldn't afford the launch of a microsat given our finances at
the time and the concern about being able to raise the funds to pay for a
launch that would likely increase in cost of time.
> >
> > To put this further in perspective, as I recall, back in 2008 the cost
to launch a 1u cubesat was around $60-80K to place a cubesat in LEO. The
current cost is about $120K for 1 Kg of mass to LEO (a cubesat is 1.1 Kg).
The doubling of launch cost is due in part to the significant interest in
cubesats by the US Government, aerospace firms (Boeing, for example), and
others who have "real money" to place cubesat payloads in LEO. Clearly, as
Tony, AA2TX (AMSAT's VP-Engineering) pointed out to me, the cubesat has
evolved from a university "novelty" to a standard spacecraft specification.
This cost increase is the reason why AMSAT applied for an ELaNA grant in
2011 (we were selected in 2012) and where we will continue to apply for
ELaNA grants in order to be able to "afford" launches. Clearly, it make
much more sense to focus on dollars donated to AMSAT for spacecraft
development rather than launches if we can get "others" to support our
launch costs.
> >
> > BTW, "Aviation Week& Space Technology Magazine" had a series of
articles in the 30 JUL 12 issue ("Small Satellites: Doing More with Less")
which highlights this evolution, including cubesats, such as TechEdSat that
will be the first US cubesat to be deployed from the ISS using the same
deployment scheme (JEM-SSOD or Small Satellite Orbital Deployer) as the
Vietnamese student F-1 cubesat that will be deployed this week.
Information about TechEdSat may be found here:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/TechEdSat.html
> >
> > Coupled with the launch costs is the "justification" for launches. NASA
and others (such as the National Science Foundation) will support launch
opportunities if the proposal meets THEIR strategic goals. Consequently,
the most effective way to "hitch a ride" is to put something in an amateur
radio space frame that meets their expectations, such as a
scientific/educational payload and/or provide "educational outreach." For
example:
> >
> > 1. ARISSat-1/Kedr deployed by RSC/Energia from the ISS in August 2011
with a student scientific payload developed by Kursk State University.
AMSAT developed ground based software to capture telemetry from both the
satellite and the payload, with amateurs forwarding captured data to a
central server. ARISSat-1/Kedr was considered to be a "prototype" for
deploying student payloads. Education outreach was also part of our efforts
with ARISSat-1, where, for example, telemetry data is available for student
analysis. Whether there are future opportunities for more ARISSat
deployments remains to be seen.
> >
> > 2. AMSAT-UK developed FunCube (funcube.org.uk) under the model where
educational outreach is the justification (to be launched in 2013). The
satellite has received financial support from the Radio Communications
Foundation and is being developed in collaboration with ISIS-Innovative
Solutions in Space BV (a Dutch small satellite company that is a spin-off
from Delft University of Technology). AMSAT-UK is developing ground-based
software with an easy-to-use receiver (FunCube Dongle developed by Howard
Long, G6LVB) to encourage use of the satellite in the classroom.
> >
> > 3. FOX-1 will have a student scientific payload (MEMS Gyro originally
developed by Penn State-Erie students) as justification for NASA to pay for
our launch under the ELaNA grant. Ground-based software for capture of
satellite telemetry and payload data is also being developed using a central
server for data to be forwarded. AMSAT is also focused on creating
education outreach materials focused on Fox-1 that will be appropriate for
future missions as well.
> >
> > 4. The appointment of Mark Hammond, N8MH as AMSAT's VP-Educational
Relations and the subsequent work that he is doing to develop relationships
with outside organizations (including ARRL and NASA Education), develop an
"educational outreach" capability in support of AMSAT's scientific and
education mission, and work to foster support of "STEM" (Science,
Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) as part of more traditional
engineering work on space craft is in recognition of the fact that we are
dependent upon the support of other organizations to be able to afford to
fly. "Education outreach" is the new "cost" (one that AMSAT can hopefully
"afford") that we must bear to keep amateur radio in space.
> >
> > Clearly, it is launch costs that is driving much of what AMSAT can
afford to accomplish. In addition, we must recognize that those that pay
for the launch will only do so if the satellite provides a benefit that
meets their goals/expectations. Clearly, future opportunities for placing
amateur radio transponders in HEO will be dependent upon finding partners
who have a need to place THEIR payload(s) in those orbits AND have the major
funding to support the launch. In essence, that is what AMSAT-DL attempted
to do by persuading the German government to fund P3-E as part of a larger
mission to Mars. Unfortunately, their attempts did not pan out.
> >
> > BTW, we'd be happy to accept your $44.00 to renew your AMSAT membership;
you can renew online at www.amsat.org... ;-)
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> > Barry Baines, WD4ASW
> > President-AMSAT
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
> >
>
> Barry, I truly welcome the launch of 1.) ARISSat-1, 2.) FunCube and also
> 3.) FOX-1. Can you give me an idea when 4.) Mark Hammond, N8MH will be
> launched, and what amateur capability he will host while in orbit? :-)
>
> Jokes aside, I am happy to see ham satellites carry educational
> packages. But I want to see amateur packages as well (as per 1, 2 and 3
> above). Satellites that carry ONLY educational packages and NO ham
> packages are of no particular interest to me, since I am a ham and not a
> student. What concerns me is this: As more satellites carry
> education-only packages, the harder it becomes to 'sell' the idea that
> an amateur package should be included. How will you answer when someone
> says "The last ten satellites carried no amateur package. Why should we?"
>
> --
> 73, de Gus 8P6SM
> The Easternmost Isle
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 316
****************************************
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