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CX2SA > SATDIG 03.06.12 00:03l 1026 Lines 35152 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Sent: 120602/2301Z @:CX2SA.SAL.URY.SA #:60934 [Salto] FBB7.00e $:AMSATBB7177
From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SA
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. AMSAT at Ham-Com, 8-9 June, Plano, TX, Special Event K5P
(Keith Pugh)
2. Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations of Interest
(pughkeithd@xx.xxxx
3. Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's (wb7dru@xxxxxxxx.xxxx
4. Fwd: AMSAT BB (Bob- W7LRD)
5. PA5RWE passed away (Andre)
6. Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's (Kevin Deane)
7. Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations (i8cvs)
8. Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations (Bob- W7LRD)
9. Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
(W4ART Arthur Feller)
10. Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations (Peter Guelzow)
11. Uni_Trac 2000 and Windows 7 64-bit (Bob DeVarney W1ICW)
12. Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations (Peter Guelzow)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 14:22:09 -0500
From: "Keith Pugh" <w5iu@xxxxxx.xxx>
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: K5GTX@xxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] AMSAT at Ham-Com, 8-9 June, Plano, TX, Special
Event K5P
Message-ID: <000001cd40f5$01767cc0$04637640$@xxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
AMSAT will have an AMSAT Booth, Satellite Demonstrations, and two Satellite
Talks at Ham-Com in Plano, TX, on 8-9 June 2012. The talks will be given by
Douglas Quagliana, KA2UPW/5, and Keith Pugh, W5IU. This year there will be
a Special Event activity (sponsored by the Plano Amateur Radio Klub)
associated with Ham-Com and the call sign will be K5P. AMSAT's Satellite
Demonstrations will be conducted using K5P as part of the Special Event.
Additional details about Ham-Com are available at: http://www.hamcom.org/
If you attend Ham-Com, drop by and see us. In addition, if you can spare an
hour or two, we could use the help in the AMSAT Booth and doing the Demos.
We plan to work as many of the following Satellite Passes as possible:
Ham-Com 2012 Demos
Grid EM13pb
Min El = 10 deg
Time Zone UTC
WinAos QTH: -96.7/33.1 T#: 12577 Sat.: 7 [Standard]
----------------------------------------------------------
Day Object AOS (U) LOS Period maxEl AZ
----------------------------------------------------------
08.06.2012 VO-52 13:53 14:00 07 39 031 - 172
08.06.2012 VO-52 15:30 15:34 04 14 319 - 259
08.06.2012 HO-68 15:41 15:54 13 48 029 - 176
08.06.2012 HO-68 17:29 17:40 11 28 350 - 238
08.06.2012 FO-29 18:43 18:56 13 64 020 - 184
08.06.2012 AO-27 18:44 18:51 07 22 118 - 018
08.06.2012 SO-50 20:08 20:15 07 19 008 - 100
08.06.2012 AO-27 20:23 20:32 09 35 196 - 331
08.06.2012 FO-29 20:30 20:38 08 18 332 - 248
08.06.2012 SO-50 21:48 21:56 08 43 317 - 174
WinAos QTH: -96.7/33.1 T#: 12578 Sat.: 7 [Standard]
----------------------------------------------------------
Day Object AOS (U) LOS Period maxEl AZ
----------------------------------------------------------
09.06.2012 VO-52 14:10 14:17 07 66 019 - 184
09.06.2012 AO-07 14:11 14:19 08 16 336 - 268
09.06.2012 HO-68 15:24 15:36 12 35 034 - 164
09.06.2012 HO-68 17:12 17:24 12 36 355 - 227
09.06.2012 FO-29 17:50 17:59 09 23 048 - 148
09.06.2012 AO-27 18:18 18:22 04 12 084 - 036
09.06.2012 FO-29 19:34 19:46 12 51 359 - 213
09.06.2012 AO-27 19:54 20:04 10 66 174 - 343
09.06.2012 SO-50 20:36 20:44 08 47 345 - 134
09.06.2012 AO-07 21:21 21:30 09 17 091 - 015
Come see us or talk to us!
73 - Keith, W5IU
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:26:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: pughkeithd@xx.xxx
To: orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxxx domenico.i8cvs@xxx.xx
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
of Interest
Message-ID: <8CF0F0CC7DF5430-1D98-200B3@xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxx.xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Do you really mean a "deplorable" antenna?
73 - Keith, W5IU
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert G Oler <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: i8cvs <domenico.i8cvs@xxx.xx>
Cc: Amsat - BBs <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Sat, Jun 2, 2012 1:44 pm
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations of
Interest
It is to bad that the concentration couldn't be on something clever that would
earn us some mass for a transponder. Like say some sort antenna that is
deplorable and would massively increase the data rates.. Like an inflatable.
Robert WB5MZO
Sent from my iPad
On May 31, 2012, at 12:46, "i8cvs" <domenico.i8cvs@xxx.xx> wrote:
> Hi Stefan, VE4NSA
>
> I believe that ESA is interested to have a payload placed on the moon only
to
make important and particular experiments that are impossible to manage to put
something into earth orbit.
>
> The capability of an Amateur Radio transponder to communicate between us or
for educational outreach and training opportunities associated with it can be
experimented even placing a transponder on earth orbit or on top of a hill.
>
> As you realize for the moment ESA seems to be not to much interested on
satellite amateur radio P3E and scientific probe P5A to Mars,figure out to
place
an amateur radio transponder on the Moon.
>
> 73" de
>
> i8CVS Domenico
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stefan Wagener
> To: i8cvs
> Cc: Amsat - BBs
> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations of
Interest
>
>
> Yes Domenico,
>
>
> You are correct. However, that particular ESA proposal is not about putting
it into orbit. It is an opportunity to have a payload placed on the moon. Once
ESA has a proposal to put something into orbit, by all means.
>
>
> Hope this helps,
>
>
> Stefan
>
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:31 AM, i8cvs <domenico.i8cvs@xxx.xx> wrote:
>
> Hi Stefan, VE4NSA
>
> It does not make sense to put a transponder on the Moon just for the
simple
> reason that it's much more, simple and cheap to put it into earth orbit.
>
> 73" de
>
> i8CVS Domenico
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stefan Wagener" <wageners@xxxxx.xxx>
> To: "Amsat - BBs" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>
> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:06 AM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations of
> Interest
>
>
>
>> ESA has posted a very unique opportunity:
>>
>> http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/HSF_Research/SEMGUMZWD2H_2.html
>>
>> Wouldn't it be great if the key AMSAT organizations put a proposal
> together
>> to put a ham radio transponder on the moon. It can have all the cool
>> educational outreach and training opportunities associated with it. Let's
>> encourage the AMSAT leadership teams to move quickly. We can do it, don't
>> you think?
>>
>> Stefan VE4NSA
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 14:53:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: wb7dru@xxxxxxxx.xxx
To: Greg D <ko6th.greg@xxxxx.xxx>, Robert Coppock
<robertinorbit@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's
Message-ID: <213936dc-d3c4-4edd-9e03-563776fa5f7b.maildroid@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I am not sure that the filtering from the small duplexer with the Arrow is
significant enough compared with the injection loss that it will produce.
I would try it first plumbed first directly into each radio. In this case
the biggest issue will front end overload of the rx portable, I have not
had problems when I tried it using FT817 and a Yesau handheld.
Dave
WB7DRU
Minnesota
Sent from my android device.
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg D <ko6th.greg@xxxxx.xxx>
To: Robert Coppock <robertinorbit@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Sent: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 12:07 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's
If I understand your wiring, I think you have it correct.
Is this what you are trying to do?
http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/articles/Mode-J/
Note that for mode-B satellites where you are transmitting on 70cm and
receiving on 2m, this won't work. In my experience, the extra filtering
is also not needed there.
Good luck,
Greg KO6TH
>
>
>
> hola, i am trying to determine the best way to work full duplex on the
birds with 2 HT's or radios. i cannot find any info so far on the web. my
concern is to keep the transmit power out of the receive radio, i guess
basically the difference between a diplexer and duplexer. since i am
efficient (lazy) i thought i would just look for suggestions here while i am
checking google also. what do i need, di/du/ plexer, and what is the
correct wiring scheme ? i will be using the arrow antenna without the built
in duplexer, from the 2 feeds (vhf/uhf) and 2 HT's for now. my picture of
it so far, is to wire the vhf radio direct to the vhf feed port on the
arrow, and have the uhf port on the arrow come into a duplexer, with the
duplexer uhf port going to the uhf radio, and the duplexer vhf port
terminated into a 50 ohm dummy load. also, any suggestions of specific
duplexers would be appreciated. i think i started on this project a few
years ago, but never got around to get!
ti!
> ng it all together. grazie mille, Robert k f 0 g cn81 in the
woodwork, literally,
shasta/klamath national forests.
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 20:36:39 +0000 (UTC)
From: Bob- W7LRD <w7lrd@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Fwd: AMSAT BB
Message-ID:
<754356488.615096.1338669399453.JavaMail.root@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxx.xx.xxxx.xxxxx
xx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
fowarding this email to the bb for a local ham
73 Bob W7LRD
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: "James Denneny" <57jndenneny@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: "Bob- W7LRD" <w7lrd@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 1:19:32 PM
Subject: AMSAT BB
Bob
?
Please add this item to the BB:
?
AEA DSP2232 Multi-Mode Digital signal Processor Modem. ?Used for decoding
Satellite telemetry. ?Works all digital modes. ?Rare item. ?Manual included
$300 plus shipping. ?Jim K7EG 253-939-6107.
?
Thanks
?
Jim
K7EG
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 22:47:54 +0200
From: Andre <sats@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xx>
To: "amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxxx <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] PA5RWE passed away
Message-ID: <op.wfamp4nnh6pnc0@xxxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;
delsp=yes
It saddens me to report that a very active and positive sattelite
opperator has passed away.
Chris Heijzelaar PA5RWE has died in his sleep last night at the age of 51
just meters below his beloved loopyagies.
condolances can be left on http://www.het-bar.net
on behalf of his radiofriends I request that everyone that has known him
remembers him for what he has done and celibrate his life.
ps. please respect his wish and don't refer to him as OM.
--
73 Andre PE1RDW
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 14:14:04 -0700
From: Kevin Deane <summit496@xxxx.xxx>
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's
Message-ID: <COL107-W39BD205EC2B915888CCD4283090@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Well just for your information, I run a FT-7900 & FT-2900 right next to each
other to a 10 elem Diamond 70cm and a 5 elem Diamond 2m both pretty close to
each other and have never had a single problem.
Considering you are transmitting on 145.850 and receiving on 436.795...
Hello, a world apart there and you are only using 5 watts. You will not have
a problem and you will not even need a duplexer with the two hand helds.
Two radios, Two antennas, Two pieces of coax. True Full Duplex.... :)
Kevin
KF7MYK
> Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 14:53:27 -0500
> From: wb7dru@xxxxxxxx.xxx
> To: ko6th.greg@xxxxx.xxxx robertinorbit@xxxxx.xxx
> CC: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's
>
> I am not sure that the filtering from the small duplexer with the Arrow is
significant enough compared with the injection loss that it will produce.
>
> I would try it first plumbed first directly into each radio. In this case
the biggest issue will front end overload of the rx portable, I have not had
problems when I tried it using FT817 and a Yesau handheld.
>
> Dave
> WB7DRU
> Minnesota
>
> Sent from my android device.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg D <ko6th.greg@xxxxx.xxx>
> To: Robert Coppock <robertinorbit@xxxxx.xxx>
> Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Sent: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 12:07 PM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: full duplex w/ 2 HT's
>
> If I understand your wiring, I think you have it correct.
>
> Is this what you are trying to do?
> http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/articles/Mode-J/
>
> Note that for mode-B satellites where you are transmitting on 70cm and
> receiving on 2m, this won't work. In my experience, the extra filtering
> is also not needed there.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Greg KO6TH
>
> >
> >
> >
> > hola, i am trying to determine the best way to work full duplex on the
birds with 2 HT's or radios. i cannot find any info so far on the web. my
concern is to keep the transmit power out of the receive radio, i guess
basically the difference between a diplexer and duplexer. since i am
efficient (lazy) i thought i would just look for suggestions here while i am
checking google also. what do i need, di/du/ plexer, and what is the correct
wiring scheme ? i will be using the arrow antenna without the built in
duplexer, from the 2 feeds (vhf/uhf) and 2 HT's for now. my picture of it so
far, is to wire the vhf radio direct to the vhf feed port on the arrow, and
have the uhf port on the arrow come into a duplexer, with the duplexer uhf
port going to the uhf radio, and the duplexer vhf port terminated into a 50
ohm dummy load. also, any suggestions of specific duplexers would be
appreciated. i think i started on this project a few years ago, but never
got around to get!
> ti!
> > ng it all together. grazie mille, Robert k f 0 g cn81 in the woodwork,
literally, shasta/klamath national forests.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 23:12:26 +0200
From: "i8cvs" <domenico.i8cvs@xxx.xx>
To: "Amsat - BBs" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>, <w7lrd@xxxxxxx.xxx>,
<jari.koivurinne@xxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
Message-ID: <000001cd4104$a551f9a0$0401a8c0@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob- W7LRD" <w7lrd@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: "STeve Andre'" <andres@xxx.xxx>
Cc: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 7:16 AM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
Just for the "fun" of it I'd like to see an accurate link budget written up.
It is a little bit out of my comfort zone. Maybe Domenico or one of you who
has this knowledge could do it. I may even learn something.
73 Bob W7LRD
Hi Bob, W7LRD
Suppose to have a L/S linear transponder on the moon with the antennas
perfectly oriented toward the Earth.
L band is for the uplink from the Earth and S band is for downlink from the
Moon.
The L/S antenna gain has been selected the maximum as possible to have the
antennas main lobe pointing at the Earth despite the relative movement of
the Moon in respect of the Earth due of Libration and a fixed 20 dBi antenna
on the Moon into L/S bands could easily cover the inclination X libration
window with no need of the lunar antennas pointing correction for most of
the time into a month.
DATA FOR the 23 cm (1268 MHz) LUNAR receiving system.(UPLINK)
Noise Figure of the 23 cm lunar receiver NF = 1 dB equivalent to ( 75 kelvin )
Equivalent total Noise Temperature Te as seen by the lunar 23 cm receiver
with the antenna connected and looking at the earth..........Te = 100 kelvin
Linear Transponder 23 cm receiver Band Width................BW =150 KHz
BW: Same as in Mode-B on OSCAR-10 and in OSCAR-13
23 cm RX Noise Floor into 2.4 KHz BW and Te = 100 kelvin: KTB = -175 dBW
23 cm RX lunar transponder RHCP Helix Antenna Gain..................G = 16
dBic
23 cm TX terrestrial RHCP Helix Antenna Gain...............................G
= 20 dBic
1268 MHz free space attenuation earth-moon at 380.000 Km............-206 dB
EARTH-MOON LINK BADGED CALCULATION FOR THE 23 cm UPLINK
23 cm terrestrial power =100 watt pep equivalent to...............+20 dBW
23 cm terrestrial RHCP antenna
Gain........................................+20 dBic
-------------
23 cm EIRP transmitted from the
earth.....................................+40 dBW
23 cm free space attenuation earth-moon 380.000 Km..........-206 dB
-------------
23 cm received power in to a 23 cm isotropic antenna
on the
moon..........................................................................
.....-166 dBW
23 cm antenna gain connected to 23 cm lunar receiver........... +16 dBi
-------------
23 cm available power at the input of the 23 cm lunar RX ....-150 dBW (*)
23 cm lunar receiver Noise Floor in to a 2400 Hz SSB
Band Width and Equivalent Noise Temp. = 100 K ................-175 dBW
---------------
S+N/N ratio available at the lunar 23 cm receiver output......+25 dB
Now suppose that the S band 2400 MHz downlink of the lunar transponder
is 20 watt pep and that 10 earth stations are putting the same signal level
of S+N/N = +25 dB into the input of the 23 cm lunar receiver.
In this conditions the S transponder will deliver the same power to each of
the users i.e. 20 W / 10 = 2 watt pep to each user.
Now suppose that the 2400 MHz antenna of the lunar transponder is a RHCP
Helix with 20 dBic gain.
The free space attenuation of the path Moon-Earth of 380.000 km at 2400 MHz
is -212 dB
Suppose that your receiving system on the ground station is similar to that
you
have used for AO40 i.e. a 120 cm parabolic dish with gain G = 27 dBic and a
2400 MHz downconverter with NF = 1 dB equivalent to 75 kelvin and performe
a Downlink Budged Calculation as follows:
MOON-EARTH LINK BADGED CALCULATION FOR 2400 MHz DOWNLINK
Power delivered for each user = 2 watt pep equivalent to
.....................+ 3 dBW
2400 MHz lunar TX RHCP antenna
Gain..................................................+ 20 dBic
----------------
2400 MHz EIRP transmitted from the Moon to each user.......................+
23 dBW
2400 MHz free space attenuation Moon-Earth 380.000 Km...................-212
dB
---------------
Received power in to a 2400 MHz isotropic antenna on Earth ..............-
189 dBW
2400 MHz 120 cm parabolic antenna gain on
Earth................................+ 27 dBic
--------------
2400 MHz available power at the input of terrestrial receiver..............-
162 dBW (*)
2400 MHz Earth receiver Noise Floor in to a 2400 Hz SSB
Band Width and Equivalent Noise Temp. = 85 Kelvin (75 kelvin
for RX plus 5 kelvin for Cold Sky of the Moon = 85 kelvin )................
-175.5 dBW
---------------
S+N/N ratio available at the output of 2400 MHz ground receiver + 13.5 dB
CONCLUSION:
The above results are very close from those obtined using the calculator
suggested by jari oh3uw at the following url provided you convert my data
signed (*) from dBW to dBm
http://www.changpuak.ch/electronics/calc_10.php
A good L/S ground station of the class used for AO40 made with a 16 dBi gain
antenna on 1268 MHz with 100 watt pep at the antenna and receiving at 2400 MHz
using a 120 cm parabolic dish (27 dBi) with a Low Noise downconverter ( NF =
1 dB )
can receive from the Moon a signal with a S+N/N ratio of + 13,5 dB provided
that
the transponder on the Moon has a 23 cm receiving RHCP antenna with gain
G = 16 dBi connected to a receiver of NF = 1 dB (75 kelvin ) and a 2400 MHz
TX with 20 watt pep supplying an RHCP antenna with gain G = 20 dBic
The above characteristics are far away from those of a conventional EME
CW and SSB station and having the opportunity of a launch from ESA a
transponder on the Moon is viable in theory by all who were users of AO40
BTW the environmental conditions to get survive a transponder on the Moon
are not easy to manage particularly because of the very high change in
temperature.
I hope this helps.
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 21:37:40 +0000 (UTC)
From: Bob- W7LRD <w7lrd@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: i8cvs <domenico.i8cvs@xxx.xx>
Cc: Amsat - BBs <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
Message-ID:
<1797112718.616676.1338673060867.JavaMail.root@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxx.xx.xxxx.xxxx
xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Thankyou Domenico...I knew you would be able to "crunch" the numbers.? Based
on these calculations I have just about enough left over hardware from AO-40
( sobsob ) to make it work.? Given the logistics, politics, financing etc I
don't see anything like happening anytime soon.? However it never hurts to
analyze and dream of what could be.? Today's dreams can be tomorrows reality.
73 Bob W7LRD
----- Original Message -----
From: "i8cvs" < domenico .i8cvs@xxx.xx>
To: " Amsat - BBs" < amsat -bb@ amsat .org>, w7lrd@xxxxxxx.xxxx " jari
koivurinne " < jari . koivurinne @ aina .net>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:12:26 PM
Subject: [ amsat -bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob- W7LRD" <w7lrd@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: " STeve Andre' " < andres @ msu . edu >
Cc: < amsat -bb@ amsat .org>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 7:16 AM
Subject: [ amsat -bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
Just for the "fun" of it I'd like to see an accurate link budget written up.
It is a little bit out of my comfort zone. Maybe Domenico or one of you who
has this knowledge could do it. I may even learn something.
73 Bob W7LRD
Hi Bob, W7LRD
Suppose to have a L/S linear transponder on the moon with the antennas
perfectly oriented toward the Earth.
L band is for the uplink from the Earth and S band is for downlink from the
Moon.
The L/S antenna gain has been selected the maximum as possible to have the
antennas main lobe pointing at the Earth despite the relative movement of
the Moon in respect of the Earth due of Libration and a fixed 20 dBi antenna
on the Moon into L/S bands could easily cover the inclination X libration
window with no need of the lunar antennas pointing correction for most of
the time into a month.
DATA FOR the 23 cm (1268 MHz) LUNAR receiving system.( UPLINK )
Noise Figure of the 23 cm lunar receiver NF = 1 dB equivalent to ( 75 kelvin )
Equivalent total Noise Temperature Te as seen by the lunar 23 cm receiver
with the antenna connected and looking at the earth..........Te = 100 kelvin
Linear Transponder 23 cm receiver Band Width................ BW =150 KHz
BW : Same as in Mode-B on OSCAR-10 and in OSCAR-13
23 cm RX Noise Floor into 2.4 KHz BW and Te = 100 kelvin: ? KTB = -175 dBW
23 cm RX lunar transponder RHCP Helix Antenna Gain..................G = 16
dBic
23 cm TX terrestrial RHCP Helix Antenna Gain...............................G
= 20 dBic
1268 MHz free space attenuation earth-moon at 380.000 Km............-206 dB
EARTH-MOON LINK BADGED CALCULATION FOR THE 23 cm UPLINK
23 cm terrestrial power =100 watt pep equivalent to...............+20 ? dBW
23 cm terrestrial RHCP antenna
Gain........................................+20 ? dBic
?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -------------
23 cm EIRP transmitted from the
earth.....................................+40 ? dBW
23 cm free space attenuation earth-moon 380.000 Km..........-206 ?dB
?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -------------
23 cm received power in to a 23 cm isotropic antenna
on the
moon..........................................................................
.....-166 ? dBW
23 cm antenna gain connected to 23 cm lunar receiver........... +16 ? dBi
?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?-------------
23 cm available power at the input of the 23 cm lunar RX ....-150 ? dBW (*)
23 cm lunar receiver Noise Floor in to a 2400 Hz SSB
Band Width and Equivalent Noise Temp. = 100 K ................-175 ? dBW
?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ---------------
S+N/N ratio available at the lunar 23 cm receiver output......+25 dB
Now suppose that the S band 2400 MHz downlink of the lunar transponder
is 20 watt pep and that 10 earth stations are putting the same signal level
of S+N/N = +25 dB into the input of the 23 cm lunar receiver.
In this conditions the S transponder will deliver the same power to each of
the users i.e. 20 W / 10 = 2 watt pep to each user. ?
Now suppose that the 2400 MHz antenna of the lunar transponder is a RHCP
Helix with 20 dBic gain.
The free space attenuation of the path Moon-Earth of 380.000 km at 2400 MHz
is -212 dB
Suppose that your receiving system on the ground station is similar to that
you
have used for AO40 i.e. a ?120 cm parabolic dish with gain G = 27 dBic and a
2400 MHz downconverter with NF = 1 dB equivalent to 75 kelvin and performe
a Downlink Budged Calculation as follows:
MOON-EARTH ?LINK BADGED CALCULATION FOR 2400 MHz DOWNLINK
Power delivered for each user = 2 watt pep equivalent to
.....................+ 3 dBW
2400 MHz lunar TX RHCP antenna
Gain..................................................+ 20 dBic
?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?----------------
2400 MHz EIRP transmitted from the Moon to each user.......................+
23 dBW
2400 MHz free space attenuation Moon-Earth 380.000 Km...................-212
dB
?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?---------------
Received power in to a 2400 MHz isotropic antenna on Earth ..............-
189 dBW
2400 MHz 120 cm parabolic antenna gain on
Earth................................+ ?27 dBic
?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?--------------
2400 MHz available power at the input of terrestrial receiver..............-
162 dBW (*)
2400 MHz Earth receiver Noise Floor in to a 2400 Hz SSB
Band Width and Equivalent Noise Temp. = 85 Kelvin (75 kelvin
for RX plus ?5 kelvin for Cold Sky of the Moon = 85 kelvin )................
-175.5 dBW
?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?---------------
S+N/N ratio available at the output of 2400 MHz ground receiver ? ? + 13.5 dB
?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
CONCLUSION:
The above results are very close from those obtined using the calculator
suggested by jari oh3uw at the following url provided you convert my data
signed (*) from dBW to dBm
http :// www . changpuak .ch/electronics/ calc _10. php
A good L/S ground station of the class used for AO40 made with a 16 dBi gain
antenna on 1268 MHz with 100 watt pep at the antenna and receiving at 2400 MHz
using a 120 cm parabolic dish (27 dBi ) with a Low Noise downconverter ( NF
= 1 dB )
can receive from the Moon a signal with a S+N/N ratio of + 13,5 dB provided
that
the transponder on the Moon has a 23 cm receiving RHCP antenna with gain
G = 16 dBi connected to a receiver of NF = 1 dB (75 kelvin ) and a 2400 MHz
TX with 20 watt pep supplying an RHCP antenna with gain G = 20 dBic
The above characteristics are far away from those of a conventional ? EME
CW and SSB station and having the opportunity of a launch from ESA a
transponder on the Moon is viable in theory by all who were users of AO40
BTW the environmental conditions to get survive a transponder on the Moon
are not easy to manage particularly because of the very high change in
temperature.
I hope this helps.
73" de
i8CVS Domenico
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 18:15:30 -0400
From: W4ART Arthur Feller <afeller@xxxx.xxx>
To: Bob- W7LRD <w7lrd@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
Message-ID: <2209CA54-1C53-4D32-81D8-91251E26A91A@xxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Check http://www.amsatuk.me.uk/iaru/spreadsheet.htm for a detailed link
budget spreadsheet, with accompanying explanations.
73, art?..
W4ART Arlington VA
On 2-Jun-2012, at 01:16 AM, Bob- W7LRD wrote:
>
>
> Just for the "fun" of it I'd like to see an accurate link budget written
up. It is a little bit out of my comfort zone. Maybe Domenico or one of
you who has this knowledge could do it. I may even learn something.
>
> 73 Bob W7LRD
>
> antennas still down
>
Please contribute: http://pages.teamintraining.org/nca/moabtour12/afeller
http://afeller.us
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 00:29:14 +0200
From: Peter Guelzow <peter.guelzow@xxxxxx.xx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
Message-ID: <4FCA93BA.5090208@xxxxxx.xx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Check also this discussion from James Miller, G3RUH:
http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/110.html
73s Peter, DB2OS
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 17:37:21 -0400
From: Bob DeVarney W1ICW <we1u@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Uni_Trac 2000 and Windows 7 64-bit
Message-ID: <4FCA8791.8020506@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi All,
I am getting back QRV after a long hiatus, and recently upgraded the
shack computer to Windows 7 64-bit.. now I am trying to install the
software and drivers for my parallel port version ( metal box ) Uni_Trac
2000 rotor interface, and I can't even get the installed to run no
matter what compatibility mode I run it in. It doesn't even open up..
Anybody have any suggestions?
All advice will be cheerfully accepted.
73,
Bob W1ICW
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 00:57:57 +0200
From: Peter Guelzow <peter.guelzow@xxxxxx.xx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: European Lunar Lander - Call for Declarations
Message-ID: <4FCA9A75.50802@xxxxxx.xx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Hi together,
Please also have a look at this document:
http://wsn.spaceflight.esa.int/docs/lunarlander/LunarLander_EIDA_CDI_230512.pd
f
in particular see point 2.2.2 Communication and 2.2.3:
"Visibility of the Earth from the landing site imposes the following
constraint:
? communications shall only be possible within a 13.7 day (TBC) window
each month, and shall depend on the availability of the ground station."
further:
"the mean power available for an individual payload is expected not to
exceed 20W"
73s Peter DB2OS
On 03.06.2012 00:29, Peter Guelzow wrote:
> Check also this discussion from James Miller, G3RUH:
>
> http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/110.html
>
>
> 73s Peter, DB2OS
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 7, Issue 177
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