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CX2SA > SATDIG 28.06.11 06:55l 1031 Lines 38760 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Today's Topics:
1. Hams Embarrass Again (Clint Bradford)
2. Re: FD Mess (Gary "Joe" Mayfield)
3. Re: FD Mess (Gary "Joe" Mayfield)
4. Re: FD Mess (Gary "Joe" Mayfield)
5. Re: FD Mess (James Duffey)
6. Re: FD Mess (Gary "Joe" Mayfield)
7. Re: FD Mess (Gary "Joe" Mayfield)
8. Re: Hams Embarrass Again (Clint Bradford)
9. Re: FD Mess (Jim Jerzycke)
10. Re: FD Mess (Art McBride)
11. Re: FD Mess (Art McBride)
12. Re: FD Mess (Greg D.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 20:57:32 -0700
From: Clint Bradford <clintbrad4d@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Hams Embarrass Again
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <F0788533-BE92-4A4B-BCD1-3251ADAA83D6@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I am so glad there are so few actually involved in this list. Fellow hams
here are again becoming an embarrassment
to the hobby.
Whining and moaning about the lack of use of the FM birds 364 days out of
the year ... Now hams are complaining
that the FM birds were too busy for them to access for Field Day.
Additionally, it's been sad to see how many illiterate hams we have in this
group - as few cannot read the Field Day
rules and properly interpret some pretty basic sentences as they apply to
working the satellites.
Then we have the "The odds of getting a "real ham" on the ISS are pretty
small in my view" folks - truly a "view" of
ignorance. It's like complaining, "How DARE the astronauts aboard not come
out and play with me on amateur radio."
Yes, there was fifteen minutes scheduled for amateur radio contacts last
weekend. (Very few actually read the daily
schedules for the astronauts - if they did, they'd realize that those aboard
the ISS complete more tasks before lunch
each day than you and I perform in many times that time.) But to moan that
they chose to perform another task and
now demeaning them as "not REAL hams" is insulting.
I witnessed similar immature behavior from my fellow hams last April 12,
when we were hoping that ARISSat-1
would be activated for the Yuri Gagarin commemorations world-wide. Hams were
screaming bloody murder when
Web sites weren't being updated second-by-second to meet their demands for
information.
I repeat myself from an earlier post (same sentiment as a subsequent post by
another) - Hams on the west coast of
the United States performed well on the FM satellites last weekend. I am
proud to live on this "left coast," as I read that
others had "problems" elsewhere.
I am giving my 13th formal satellite presentation of the year to a group
tomorrow night ... Seems I do not have to
change a thing that is taught to fellow hams out here.
Clint Bradford, K6LCS
http://www.work-sat.com
909-241-7666
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 22:58:35 -0500
From: "Gary \"Joe\" Mayfield" <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
To: "'Diane Bruce'" <db@xx.xxx>
Cc: 'AMSAT' <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <COL114-DS1442F9598058B4768487758A560@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Diane,
I'm not sure if I agree, but I am very willing to discuss. In past
years I have taken many flames for demonstrating satellites to scouts and
other visitors at our site because it always resulted in the one contact
rule being broken. This year I had the satellite gear operational for maybe
10 minutes to assemble the Arrow, connect the handheld, make the contact,
disassemble the Arrow and put it all away.
It was easy, but not much of a demonstration. The 100 point bonus
was the only reason for our doing it. Unless you have lots of folks at your
Field Day site with nothing to do, there is no real reward to having an
OSCAR station.
This is coming from someone who would still call themselves a
satellite enthusiast.
73,
Joe kk0sd
-----Original Message-----
From: amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On
Behalf Of Diane Bruce
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:19 PM
To: wa4hfn@xxxxxxx.xxx
Cc: AMSAT
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 03:13:34PM +0000, wa4hfn@xxxxxxx.xxx wrote:
> It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too
many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not
have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL
world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
> WA4HFN em55 Damon
I know I am going to get hate mail again. I just know it. But here goes.
I've been quietly suggesting that we should _not_ be encouraging sat use
during field day, furthermore we probably should consider turning them
off during field day to stop this.
Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators
are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in
promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day
operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the
surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify
the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.
- 73 Diane VA3DB
--
- db@xxxxxxx.xxx db@xx.xxx http://www.db.net/~db
Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth?
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:02:15 -0500
From: "Gary \"Joe\" Mayfield" <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <COL114-DS22DE77C440FB663B71AAAC8A560@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
One and done -- It's been several years, does anyone think it has worked????
Maybe it is time to reconsider. I know it has convinced us to drop a
satellite station from our lineup. Kevin or I just do the hand and Arrow
for ten minutes get a Q and then pack it up.
Joe kk0sd
-----Original Message-----
From: amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On
Behalf Of George Henry
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:36 PM
To: Bill Acito W1PA; amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
The intent of the rule was to reduce the congestion on the FM satellites by
getting stations OFF them after making their one QSO, thereby giving more
stations the opportunity to make a QSO. So the way I interpret it, and the
way
I've operated since the rule was adopted (and I was one of those who hounded
the
ARRL to adopt it), is "ONE and you're DONE."
Not two, or twenty, and you only get to SCORE one...
ONE.
George, KA3HSW
----- Original Message ----
> From: Bill Acito W1PA <w1pa@xxxxxxx.xxx>
> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 3:59:09 PM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
[snip]
> Yes, so I read this to say:
> You can make as many satellite QSO's as you want.
> They count as another band, each counts for QSO credit.
> You get 100 bonus point when you make the first
> Only one QSO out of the total QSOs can come from any/all of the FM
> birds.
>
> Could a lot of the "multi-QSO" issues have come from the fact that folks
> simply didn't understand the rules?
>
> Bill
> W1PA
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:04:48 -0500
From: "Gary \"Joe\" Mayfield" <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
To: "'Majdi S. Abbas'" <msa@xxxx.xxx>
Cc: 'AMSAT' <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <COL114-DS15697EF42D8156349DB0CD8A560@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I can absolutely claim at least 3 satellite converts as a result of the old
get on the air and hammer away method, but 0 converts since the one and done
era.
Joe kk0sd
-----Original Message-----
From: amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On
Behalf Of Majdi S. Abbas
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:42 PM
To: Diane Bruce
Cc: AMSAT
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 05:18:54PM -0400, Diane Bruce wrote:
> Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators
> are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in
> promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day
> operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the
> surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify
> the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
>
> Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.
Sure, the person operating the radio is trying to collect the
bonus points for their operation.
But most Field Day operations are a *group* effort. Many of
the hams present may never have operated a satellite, and if shown
that they can get on the FM sats relatively easily, may give it a
try. There are typically dozens of people present besides the
satellite operator, at least a few of which express some interest.
People who collect bonus points usually go for the public
location/information table bonus as well, so you may be introducing
possible future hams to satellite work.
If the argument is 'show me the data,' feel free to go collect it;
the published FD scores is a good starting point for reaching out to
the involved parties. Or you could fund a survey.
It seems silly to demand that outreach be justified for you;
without it, you won't need those satellites anyway. Lack of outreach
is a self correcting problem -- just add time, and there won't be any
satellites left.
73,
Majdi, N0RMZ
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 22:08:19 -0600
From: James Duffey <jamesduffey@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
To: wa4hfn@xxxxxxx.xxx
Cc: James Duffey <jamesduffey@xxxxxxx.xxx>, AMSAT <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <179816F0-D788-4D78-BC06-3DAA8425A4DD@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Jun 27, 2011, at 9:1 contact There were too
many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not
have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL
world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
> WA4HFN em55 Damon
Damon - If this bothers you, or others, there are several things one can do
to address this issue.
1. Use the linear birds. You can make more than a single contact per
satellite, and the bandwidth available supports dozens of contacts in a
pass. The linear birds are not without their problems, mainly different ways
of dealing with Doppler shift and QRM, but the short nature of the contacts
make coping with these problems much like dealing with HF QRM. One can
easily make 5 or more QSOs per pass on a linear satellite with even
primitive satellite operating abilities. You do the math, particularly after
waiting for 5 satellite passes before you could make a contact. That is a
25:1 ratio in favor of the linear birds. To me it is lots less hassle to
deal with the Doppler than to deal with the single signal nature of the FM
birds and the payoff is significantly greater for not that much more effort.
2. Report the offenders. Field day rules specify one contact per FM bird per
transponder. If you hear someone making more than one contact per satellite
per transponder, write down the offender's call and the calls he works and
send it to the ARRL. If you can make an audio recording of the offender so
much the better. With this information the ARRL should be able to verify the
offense from the logs and take action, at the least changing the entry to a
check log and at the most DQing the entry. If the satellite ops cost a club
a valid entry, I suspect that peer pressure will prevent it from happening
again.
3. Contacts through the FM birds could not be counted for FD credit at all.
This would exclude the newcomer with only FM HT capability, but I am not
sure that trying to work an FM bird on FD is a good introduction to
satellite operation anyway.
4. The FM transponders could be shut off during FD.
5. Satellite FM contacts could be limited to portable stations only. This
would reduce the big station's capabilities to dominate the satellites.
Their absence would not be
The FM satellite problems on Field Day are really just a concentrated
version of the problems with FM satellites in general. While they are
ideally suited to the beginner with minimal equipment, and hence a good
introduction to satellite operation in general, the beginner who gets
introduced to satellite operation with the FM birds really needs to move on
to the linear birds to fully experience what satellite operation is capable
of. If they do not move on, then the enticement of FM satellites has failed.
And the resources used to launch then have not been used to their fullest. -
Duffey KK6MC
--
James Duffey KK6MC
DM65tc
Cedar Crest NM
< jamesduffey@xxxxxxx.xxx >
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:10:31 -0500
From: "Gary \"Joe\" Mayfield" <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
To: "'R Oler'" <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>, <pagreen@xxxxx.xxx>, "'Amsat
BB'" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <COL114-DS61C08A1240DADC6A70B1A8A560@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
ERP is especially fun.... Who's antenna gain numbers are you going to use??
Joe kk0sd
-----Original Message-----
From: amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On
Behalf Of R Oler
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 2:24 PM
To: pagreen@xxxxx.xxxx Amsat BB
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
How would you enforce it? Robert G. Oler WB5MZO (life member AMSAT ARRL
NARS)
> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:48:48 -0500
> From: pagreen@xxxxx.xxx
> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
>
> The ARRL should impose an ERP limit for satellite contacts. That
> would solve the problem. I don't see how running amplifiers on FD is
> in the spirit of what FD is all about. I've made contacts using 50 mw
> so why do stations use 100+ watts *before* the antenna.. I wouldn't
> want my kids playing around a FD site with this time of setup.
>
> 73 de Pat --- KA9SCF.
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:17:28 -0500
From: "Gary \"Joe\" Mayfield" <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
To: "'Tim Cunningham'" <tim_cunningham@xxxxxxx.xxx>,
<amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <COL114-DS7ACCD55B99F1D462C11C38A560@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
You know there is something here. I worked some late night on 80 meters.
The noise was high and signals were few. I came across a station with a big
signal, and worked him easily. Then I noticed he was working lots of folks!
I suspect he had put a lot more time and energy into his 80 meter station
than we had into ours. Is it fair he gets to make more contacts with his
bigger better station? I think I would argue it is. It is his reward for
all of that effort. Did he make it possible for stations that may not have
otherwise made a contact 80 to make a contact? Yes, he did. He was
monopolizing the frequency, but it seemed to make for a lot of contacts....
Joe kk0sd
-----Original Message-----
From: amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On
Behalf Of Tim Cunningham
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 9:53 PM
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
Excellent!
Now let's move to the next step of business and address the true "FD Mess"
that comes around every year.
The focus is around the FM satellite chaos. Several of us know the when,
where, and why the 1 QSO limit was imposed.
What I would like to see happen to address this issue is look at the real
statistics, before and after the institution of this ruling for the 1 QSO
limit. Look at the data and determine how many more QSO's were made before
this ruling when a Net Control style of operation took place. If you need
help I can provide the hit rate from our Field Day data way back when. It is
bigger than many might realize. This type of operation brought about the
same level of comment at the time, but I think we overlooked the benefit due
to all the rants. With a 1 QSO point credit limit, we removed the fact that
somebody could monopolize and run up their point count. Thus, the 1 QSO
limit achieved its goal. This issue is that it went too far and promoted
chaos.
The reason for this investigation applies directly to the new title you are
suggesting for the AMSAT event titled "2012 AMSAT Field Day Emergency
Preparedness". In the original intent of Field Day it is only reasonable to
pull away from this title that we are communicators finding ways to
communicate effectively and efficiently. That being the case I think you
will find that that a reasonable net control operation on an FM satellite
may yield the most completed 2-way QSO's than letting chaos reign. The ARRL
even promotes nets for a reason! We have let chaos reign far too long when
some may recall when a net control style of operation yielded the most
complete 2-way QSO's. Decipher the data and let the data speak for itself.
We ran an experiment many years ago on an FM satellite during Field Day that
brought on this ruling and we know that a net control style of operation is
the only way to command control and bring more orderly operation than a free
for all. The current rule!
on an FM satellite does not promote the style of operation that would
normally be conducted under emergency preparedness condition. We can change
this and it has been proven that a Net Control style of operation can
increase the QSO count. I cannot help but remember listening in frustration
years ago when people were calling aimlessly on an FM satellite during Field
Day and very few were making 2-way exchanges. We could not stand it! Our
station got on the air a few passes and became a target in a Net Style
operation and stations were calling the target and we dished out QSO's to
many station when nothing was being accomplished at the time. It brought
order to chaos and QSO's were being made quickly. The operation was not
about the points, but it was all about communicating. However, the aftermath
of this specific operation created the great FM satellite rift.
It is time to move forward and change the course of chaos.
My suggestion is to allow a Net Control type of operation. Let us say you
make 5, 10 or more sequential QSO's and pass it off to another station who
can capture and command the satellite, if there is one. Efficiency is
improved when there is a target. I guess my only point here is that doing
nothing will change nothing. We still have the 1 QSO limit so nobody has to
worry about a monopoly or somebody running up there point total. I would do
it and not claim a QSO point if needed in order to see it changed for the
better. When somebody hears a target station they will call it and/or the
target station can respond to those calling. This operation clearly netted
the most QSO's being made at a specific time in history. It also clears
traffic on the satellite faster when stations get their 100 bonus points for
the ARRL event or 1 point for the AMSAT event. At this point the other
station is dancing in the field bragging about their contact plus they would
not get any additional c!
redit even if they made another contact anyway. Disallowing a net style or
control point for multiple contacts on an FM satellite only promotes chaos.
This is my point and a suggestion for the box.
?
Thank you for your interest and sincerity in advance,
Tim - N8DEU
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Paige
To: Tim Cunningham ; amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
I can handle that... next year it will be "2012 AMSAT Field Day Emergency
Preparedness"
73...bruce
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tim Cunningham <tim_cunningham@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 4:49:06 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
Read the AMSAT rules. The title of the AMSAT rules IS clear when you read
the title as "2011 AMSAT Field Day Competition ".
Tim - N8DEU
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Geiger" <aa5jg@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: "STeve Andre'" <andres@xxx.xxx>
Cc: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
Of course it isn't a contest. The best evidence is that they print the
scores in QST!
73s John AA5JG
On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:09 PM, STeve Andre' <andres@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> Well, is IS a contest, no matter what the ARRL says. People see it as
> such.
> My first FD before I was a ham, looked like a contest to me and it was
> only
> later, reading all the ARRL books I could get ahold of that I realized it
> really wasn't one.
>
> All contests where you go outside are test runs for emergency stuff.
> Our club in Ann Arbor MI (Arrow Communication Association) does the
> summer vhf+ contests outside (6m-1296) and those have been a great
> way to figure out ways of doing stuff.
>
> I would argue that the ARRL needs to change the way they talk, and
> offer FD as both a contest and exercise in communications, and
> speak of the exercise opportunities at the other contests, especially
> those of rovers.
>
> --STeve Andre'
> wb8wsf en72
>
> On 06/27/11 14:21, Nigel Gunn wrote:
> > A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate
> > your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
> > FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses involved at all?
> >
> > On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
> >> I think we have to let go of the mantra that ?any use of the bandwidth
> is good use? with respect to ?encouraging more satellite activity?.
Wasn?t
> that the original intent of the ?100 point bonus? items? To encourage
> specific activities ? traffic handling, promotion, emergency power, etc.
> >>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 21:17:39 -0700
From: Clint Bradford <clintbrad4d@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Hams Embarrass Again
To: Jim Jerzycke <kq6ea@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <49E9653A-D777-4D9C-A167-BFEB75CD1C99@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>> ... and as you said, the pass was populated by well behaved operators.
>> ... And thanks for doing all those presentations. One of these days we'll
get you on a linear bird!
Just yesterday a visitor to my "Work the FM Sats" left me a message" "Hey,
how 'bout the OTHER
sats we can work?"
He was an honest-to-gawd satellite scientist from the 60s and 70s. WAY TOO
ADVANCED (pardon the
pun) for my meager Web site's offerings.
But I am still finding appreciative audiences for the "basics" of working
the FM birds - even after giving
60+ presentations the past three or so years.
Clint, K6LCS
P.S. - If any of you live in CA and have personalized license plates, watch
for my next post ...
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 04:19:16 +0000
From: Jim Jerzycke <kq6ea@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <4E095644.1030409@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
"One-and-Done" is fine for the FM satellites. The (ONE!) guy I worked on
SO-50 even said "Well, that's it on this bird!", and I got him later on
AO-7.
We had a group of ps, and why
you need to keep moving the antennas.
I let them listen to some low passes of SO-50 and AO-51 that were mostly
out over the Pacific, and as K6LCS said, the operators were well behaved.
I wouldn't dare let them listen to a pass over the middle of the
country, as I'm sure they'd be discouraged!
73, Jim
On 06/28/2011 04:04 AM, Gary "Joe" Mayfield wrote:
> I can absolutely claim at least 3 satellite converts as a result of the old
> get on the air and hammer away method, but 0 converts since the one and done
> era.
>
> Joe kk0sd
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On
> Behalf Of Majdi S. Abbas
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:42 PM
> To: Diane Bruce
> Cc: AMSAT
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
>
> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 05:18:54PM -0400, Diane Bruce wrote:
>> Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators
>> are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in
>> promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day
>> operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the
>> surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify
>> the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
>>
>> Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.
> Sure, the person operating the radio is trying to collect the
> bonus points for their operation.
>
> But most Field Day operations are a *group* effort. Many of
> the hams present may never have operated a satellite, and if shown
> that they can get on the FM sats relatively easily, may give it a
> try. There are typically dozens of people present besides the
> satellite operator, at least a few of which express some interest.
>
> People who collect bonus points usually go for the public
> location/information table bonus as well, so you may be introducing
> possible future hams to satellite work.
>
> If the argument is 'show me the data,' feel free to go collect it;
> the published FD scores is a good starting point for reaching out to
> the involved parties. Or you could fund a survey.
>
> It seems silly to demand that outreach be justified for you;
> without it, you won't need those satellites anyway. Lack of outreach
> is a self correcting problem -- just add time, and there won't be any
> satellites left.
>
> 73,
>
> Majdi, N0RMZ
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 21:32:19 -0700
From: "Art McBride" <kc6uqh@xxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
To: "'Joe'" <nss@xxx.xxx>, <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <0168F28E605F44BB97B5194895816C19@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Joe ,
The ARRL maintains that because they do not give awards it is not a contest.
But like a duck they publish the scores with earned bonus points. Same
deception we get from politicians that are also East of the Hudson!
Art,
KC6UQH
-----Original Message-----
From: amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On
Behalf Of Joe
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:23 PM
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
I know the ARRL says it is not a contest. but if you believe that I
have a lovely swamp in Arizona to sell you.
I know many clubs that it is a MAJOR contest for them and some it's the
onluy one they enter in.
Joe WB9SBD
The Original Rolling Ball Clock
Idle Tyme
Idle-Tyme.com
http://www.idle-tyme.com
On 6/27/2011 1:21 PM, Nigel Gunn wrote:
> A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate
> your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
> FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses involved at all?
>
> On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
>> I think we have to let go of the mantra that "any use of the bandwidth is
good use" with respect to "encouraging more satellite activity". Wasn't
that the original intent of the "100 point bonus" items? To encourage
specific activities - traffic handling, promotion, emergency power, etc.
>>
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 21:35:51 -0700
From: "Art McBride" <kc6uqh@xxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
To: "'Jeff Moore'" <tnetcenter@xxxxx.xxx>, "'AMSAT'"
<amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <E05AA75B1B8E4E31BA90DD9CB687FE50@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Jeff,
The way to fix it is to get the ARRL to drop the 100 Bonus points for the
first satellite contact. Then we can talk to ourselves on Satellite with 0
days of chaos!
Art,
KC6UQH
-----Original Message-----
From: amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On
Behalf Of Jeff Moore
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:23 PM
To: AMSAT
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
You raise an interesting point and something I've wondered about for some
time now.
IF the sat operators are always so bent out of shape when someone actually
uses the sats, then why the heck does AMSAT promote a parallel Field Day
event with ARRL's Field Day??
I think it's about time for AMSAT to have their OWN Field Day Event ON A
SEPARATE WEEKEND!!!
That way the "serious" sat operators can play all they want on their linear
birds and leave the FM sats for the ARRL Field Day participants. Then AMSAT
can have it's own Field Day (or SAT DAY) with it's own rules, like a 100 pt
bonus for working 2 or more qso's on a linear bird or a 200 pt deduction for
working an FM bird, etc.
73,
Jeff Moore -- KE7ACY
CN94
Shields Up!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Diane Bruce" <db@xx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
I know I am going to get hate mail again. I just know it. But here goes.
I've been quietly suggesting that we should _not_ be encouraging sat use
during field day, furthermore we probably should consider turning them
off during field day to stop this.
Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators
are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in
promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day
operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the
surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify
the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.
- 73 Diane VA3DB
--
- db@xxxxxxx.xxx db@xx.xxx http://www.db.net/~db
Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth?
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------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 21:43:57 -0700
From: "Greg D." <ko6th_greg@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
To: <db@xx.xxx>, <wa4hfn@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <BLU133-W773F65EC1F73857A257FBA9560@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Diane,
Given the chaos, it is easy to question the event. Then you get a letter
such as this, and it gives you a new perspective. This is from one of our
club members who I was coaching before Field Day on what birds to try, etc.
I was not able to attend, but he did. Here's his report.
Greg,
Thanks. Back from a successful field day!
Yes, turns out AO-27 and AO-51 were both able to be heard well several
times. I had trouble with uplink, but the discovered that the 2 meter
feedpoint was broken ;(
There were about 5 ISS passes, including on visual last night. The repeater
was on for one or two passes, but nary a word from the crew ;(
The real win was that some of our members got fascinate with the idea about
an HT and handheld antenna. They heard several stations from "far off" and
as each pass come interest grew. So that's a step forward.
See you at the next meeting.
take care,
Carl
So, there you have it. "Typical" field day tribulations, no contacts, and
still a positive result. In spite of all the chaos, 100 points, etc.,
operating Satellite is still a mystery to a significant portion of the Ham
community, and a totally science fiction event for most of the general
public. In some regards, there is no such thing as bad publicity, if it's
handled right. So what we see as chaos, another person observing from afar
might see as Hey! He's receiving signals from outer space with a
walkie-talkie and a small TV antenna! How neat is that!
Greg KO6TH
> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:18:54 -0400
> From: db@xx.xxx
> To: wa4hfn@xxxxxxx.xxx
> CC: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
>
> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 03:13:34PM +0000, wa4hfn@xxxxxxx.xxx wrote:
> > It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were
too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should
not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the
ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
> > WA4HFN em55 Damon
>
> I know I am going to get hate mail again. I just know it. But here goes.
> I've been quietly suggesting that we should _not_ be encouraging sat use
> during field day, furthermore we probably should consider turning them
> off during field day to stop this.
>
> Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators
> are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in
> promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day
> operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the
> surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify
> the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
>
> Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.
>
> - 73 Diane VA3DB
> --
> - db@xxxxxxx.xxx db@xx.xxx http://www.db.net/~db
> Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth?
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
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End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 6, Issue 348
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