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Today's Topics:
1. Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig (MM)
2. Re: Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig (Mark L. Hammond)
3. Re: Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig (Andrew Glasbrenner)
4. Re: Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig (John Geiger)
5. Re: Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig (John Geiger)
6. Re: Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig (Ken Ernandes)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 10:44:00 -0800 (PST)
From: MM <ka1rrw@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <554447.33697.qm@xxxxxxxx.xxxx.xxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
My Ideal Competition Grade VHF/UHF Radio Wish list.
It seems we are long over do for a Competition grade high performance
VHF/UHF transceiver, which can also be used for Satellite operations.
There are several competition grade HF transceivers on the market, however
there are no high end competition grade VHF/UHF/Satellite systems on the
marker.
Most of the rigs I have seen which support VHF/UHF are either HF rigs that
have had VHF/UHF slapped on, or low end VHF/UHF rigs, with HF slapped on.
If we want the Amateur Radio manufactures to build us a "GREAT"
VHF/UHF/Satellite system, then we need to tell them what we need.
Here are some suggestions. Constructive comments welcome.
This radio does not exist.
If the manufactures are interested in providing a new state of the art
VHF/UHF radio to the Amateur Radio community, here is one opinion of what
should be in next Competition Grade VHF/UHF Transceiver and what should not
be in the radio.
I am going to give this fictional radio a name HR-956-Pro.
What do we need:
? We need a competition grade VHF/UHF transceiver that will support
Terrestrial-DX, Satellite and EME operations (Voice, CW and Digital-JT65).
? The HR-956-Pro, needs to be able to interface with modern computers (HTML
Browser, USB and or CAT-5).
? The HR-956-Pro, needs to able to interface with modern Externally mounted
Pre-amplifier (both power feeds and transmitter sequencing).
? The HR-956-Pro, need to be able to interface with modern Solid State
Amplifiers and Tube based amplifiers. The RF output per band needs to be
standardized with the Amplifier manufactures to prevent transceiver and
amplifier failures due to sequencing problems and RF mismatching.
? TX/RX Sequencer built-in, to control external Preamps, Amplifies and other
accessories (programmable).
Receiver:
Of course we need a "Great" receiver, not another mediocre receiver.
Each receiver for each band needs to be a "Great" performer.
No Birdies:
On a HF rig, a few Birdies do not usually cause serious issues, since the HF
users are often listening to signals "Above" the noise floor. On a
Satellite Radio, we are often listening to signals 10-30 dB, "Below" the
Noise floor. Internally generated birdies are a serious problem for weak
signal VHF/UHF operations.
Filters:
Each mode will need its own selection of DSP filters. The filters would
also affect one of the Line-level outputs to the external PC. There are
times when want to send Filtered or unfiltered audio to your external PC for
Digital signal processing. One of the line-level outputs should be taped
before the HR-956-Pro Filters, the other line-level output should be taped
after the HR-956-Pro filters. The TX and RX filters should be independently
selectable.
The Filters need to be tested to verify they will support Satellite Mode-J
(TX on 2-meters while listening on 435-438)
Example:
FM-5k, Filters 15k, 10k and 8k filters.
AM Filters 10k, 6k, 3k, etc.
SSB Filters 4.0k, 3.0k, 2.5k, 2.0k, etc.
Other Modes:
CW, FM-2.5k, Data
Audio Quality:
Life is too short for QRP or Poor Audio.
It's not the number of contacts that?s important, it?s the quality of the
contact.
On the audio side, the HR-956-Pro needs to be able to support a wider range
of audio through most of the stages. Of course the radio needs to meet FCC
and other requirements, however we can still design the radio to deliver a
wider bandwidth of good sounding audio.
Let's shoot for 100-4000 Hz, on both TX and RX audio circuits. This will
also mean, that a better stock microphone design will be required.
VHF / UHF Bands built-in, with competition grade TX/RX:
6-meters 50-54
2-meters 144-148
70-cm 420 - 450
23-cm 1280 - 1300
(All frequencies localized for each country)
Transmitter outputs:
A high power transceiver is less desirable than a low power transceiver.
Let me explain:
For serious Terrestrial DX and EME you need to run more than 100 watts. A
VHF/UHF transceiver designed for high power ( 100 watt range) transmitting,
would not be compatible with third-party amplifiers or pre-amplifiers.
Most VHF/UHF amps are designed for 25 or 50 watts maximum input.
The manufactures of Transceivers and Amplifies need to agree upon a set of
standard power level so the third-party amplifier manufactures can design
properly matched Amplifiers and pre-amplifiers. This will also help reduce
the number of transceiver and amplifier failures caused by mismatched RF
settings.
Suggested standards for VHF/UHF bases stations:
6 Meters 50 watts
2 Meters 25 watts
70 cm 25 watts
900 mc 10 watts
1.2 gig 10 watts
The duty cycle of the competition grade system, will also need to be greater
than a 70% duty cycle.
A typical EME link running JT65 requires a 50% for 10-30 minutes at a time.
The transistors and cooling system needs to be designed accordingly to meet
the competition grade requirements.
HR-956-Pro Must have list:
Spectrum display screen:
I can't imagine building a new competition grade system without this feature.
It would be nice to see the band pass, before and after the filter stages.
Full computer remote control:
Memory read/Read and save. All memory channels options must be exportable
to a CSV or similar file, including TX and RX frequencies, settings,
including Repeater or split frequency settings.
All protocols must be Public protocols, no propriety software or licenses.
Doppler Control (Manual):
LEO SSB satellites are some of the hardest satellites two work because of
the amount of Doppler frequency change per second. Satellite Mode-B is very
hard (70 cm Uplink and 2-meter Downlink). While you are talking through a
SSB Mod-B satellite, you need to be simultaneously adjusting your
transmitter with every other word, in order to keep your downlink signal
centered inside the transponder.
The Yasue FT-736R Satellite control knob, seems to work very well with dual
VFO's and provides you the ability to quickly change either TX or RX to
compensate for Doppler (among other features). The Knob style is much
easier to use than "Buttons". I found the Doppler VFO correction on some
newer radios to be very frustrating.
The new HR-956-Pro must have the Yasue FT-736R control Knob and it must be
functional for both VFO's and Memory Channels.
DSP Noise tools:
The usual stuff.
FM Center Tuning Meter:
Many of the new satellites are LEO's (Low Earth Orbit), and many of these
satellites are running FM-5k. The reason for FM is because the Doppler
causes the 70cm band to drift over 20, kHz during a 10-20 minute pass. The
LEO SSB satellites using Mode J or Mode B are difficult to use because of
the large Doppler change. The FM mode, helps reduce the impact caused by
the higher Doppler.
The FM Center Tuning Meter feature is a "must have" for a Satellite radio.
When the FM satellite comes in range, just look at the FM meter and tune the
receiver until the needle is centered and you now know the exact downlink
for that Satellite. If the needle is left, turn the RX knob slowly Right,
If the needle is Right, turn the RX knob slowly left, very simple.
The Yaesu FT-736R has a FM Center Tuning Meter and it makes working FM
satellites much easier. The IC-910 has a blinking light to tell you your FM
satellite receiver frequency has drifted. Unfortunately, the blinking light
is useless in telling you if your frequency is high or low.
HR-956-Pro, Nice to have list:
General coverage receiver (50 - 1000 megacycles):
The addition of a general coverage receiver would help with the sales of the
HR-956-Pro. However, it is very important that the general coverage
receiver, NOT degrade the performance of the satellite receivers. We are
not trying to build a super police scanner. One possible suggestion would-be
to make the general coverage receiver a separate circuit board, which would
be connected to a separate antenna port and thus would not degraded from the
performance of the satellite receivers.
VHF / UHF Optional bands or Transverter:
The Amateur radio community is constantly experimenting with new bands. It
would be nice to have a Transverter module or expansion module for future
bands. In the USA these bands are becoming popular, 220mc, 900 mc, etc
(All frequencies localized for each country)
Size is important:
To hold the hardware, band scope, filters and make the buttons easily
accessible, a box about the size of the IC-756 product seems to be the right
size.
What should not be in the HR-956-Pro.
No HF:
No access to frequencies below 50 megacycles.
The addition of HF to a satellite radio would only degrade the performance
of the weak signal satellite receivers.
HF would also add to the cost of the transceiver and reduce its sales
potential.
A competition grade VHF/UHF transceiver has no use for HF.
HF would result in the radio being just another mediocre transceiver.
No obsolete Serial ports:
No RS-232 or TTL.
These devices are so last century.
DSTAR:
The DSTAR mode is fun, I use it often and I have even been pushing ARISS to
install it on the International Space Station. As much as I like this mode,
it is not a requirement for a competition grade satellite system. I would
much rather have the money put into making the VHF/UHF receivers the best
possible.
How much are we willing to pay for the HR-956-Pro:
That depends on the performance, suggest price $2000 - $3000 USD
Closing:
If anyone knows of such a radio I would be interested to know who makes it.
Sincerely
WF1F Miles
www.marexmg.org
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:55:21 -0500
From: "Mark L. Hammond" <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig
To: MM <ka1rrw@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID:
<5d8cecfe1003011055k3daeff14w9bb2d93285bc6e68@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
How about IF tap (10.7MHz) and high speed packet ready (up to say, 76k
or faster)?
(Maybe I missed it, but I don't think I saw those 2 features...)
73,
Mark N8MH
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:44 PM, MM <ka1rrw@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> My Ideal Competition Grade VHF/UHF Radio Wish list.
>
> It seems we are long over do for a Competition grade high performance
VHF/UHF transceiver, which can also be used for Satellite operations. ?
There are several competition grade HF transceivers on the market, however
there are no high end competition grade VHF/UHF/Satellite systems on the
marker.
>
> Most of the rigs I have seen ?which support VHF/UHF are either HF rigs
that have had VHF/UHF slapped on, or low end VHF/UHF rigs, with HF slapped on.
>
> If we want the Amateur Radio manufactures to build us a "GREAT"
VHF/UHF/Satellite system, then we need to tell them what we need.
>
> Here are some suggestions. ?Constructive comments welcome.
>
> This radio does not exist.
> If the manufactures are interested in providing a new state of the art
VHF/UHF radio to the Amateur Radio community, here is one opinion of what
should be in next Competition Grade VHF/UHF Transceiver and what should not
be in the radio.
>
> I am going to give this fictional radio a name HR-956-Pro.
>
>
> What do we need:
>
> ? ? ? ? We need a competition grade VHF/UHF transceiver that will support
Terrestrial-DX, Satellite and EME operations (Voice, CW and ?Digital-JT65).
> ? ? ? ? The HR-956-Pro, needs to be able to interface with modern
computers (HTML Browser, USB and or CAT-5).
> ? ? ? ? The HR-956-Pro, needs to able to interface with modern Externally
mounted Pre-amplifier (both power feeds and transmitter sequencing).
> ? ? ? ? The HR-956-Pro, need to be able to interface with modern Solid
State Amplifiers and Tube based amplifiers. ?The RF output per band needs to
be standardized with the Amplifier manufactures to prevent transceiver and
amplifier failures due to sequencing problems and RF mismatching.
> ? ? ? ? TX/RX Sequencer built-in, to control external Preamps, Amplifies
and other accessories (programmable).
>
> Receiver:
> Of course we need a "Great" receiver, not another mediocre receiver.
> Each receiver for each band needs to be a "Great" performer.
>
> No Birdies:
> On a HF rig, a few Birdies do not usually cause serious issues, since the
HF users are often listening to signals "Above" the noise floor. ?On a
Satellite Radio, we are often listening to signals 10-30 dB, "Below" the
Noise floor. ?Internally generated birdies are a serious problem for weak
signal VHF/UHF operations.
>
> Filters:
> Each mode will need its own selection of DSP filters. ?The filters would
also affect one of the Line-level outputs to the external PC. ?There are
times when want to send Filtered or unfiltered audio to your external PC for
Digital signal processing. ?One of the line-level outputs should be taped
before the HR-956-Pro Filters, the other line-level output should be taped
after the HR-956-Pro filters. ?The TX and RX filters should be independently
selectable.
> The Filters need to be tested to verify they will support Satellite Mode-J
(TX on 2-meters while listening on 435-438)
>
> Example:
> FM-5k, ?Filters 15k, 10k and 8k filters.
> AM ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Filters 10k, 6k, 3k, etc.
> SSB ? ? ? ? ? ? Filters 4.0k, 3.0k, 2.5k, 2.0k, etc.
>
> Other Modes:
> CW, FM-2.5k, Data
>
> Audio Quality:
> Life is too short for QRP or Poor Audio.
> It's not the number of contacts that?s important, it?s the quality of the
contact.
> On the audio side, the HR-956-Pro needs to be able to support a wider
range of audio through most of the stages. ?Of course the radio needs to
meet FCC and other requirements, however we can still design the radio to
deliver a wider bandwidth of good sounding audio.
> Let's shoot for 100-4000 Hz, on both TX and RX audio circuits. ?This will
also mean, that a better stock microphone design will be required.
>
>
> VHF / UHF Bands built-in, with competition grade TX/RX:
> 6-meters ? ? ? ?50-54
> 2-meters ? ? ? ?144-148
> 70-cm ? ? ? ? ? 420 - 450
> 23-cm ? ? ? ? ? 1280 - 1300
> (All frequencies localized for each country)
>
> Transmitter outputs:
> A high power transceiver is less desirable than a low power transceiver.
>
> Let me explain:
> For serious Terrestrial DX and EME you need to run more than 100 watts. A
VHF/UHF transceiver designed for high power ( 100 watt range) transmitting,
would not be compatible with third-party amplifiers or pre-amplifiers.
>
> Most VHF/UHF amps are designed for 25 or 50 watts maximum input.
>
> The manufactures of Transceivers and Amplifies need to agree upon a set of
standard power level so the third-party amplifier manufactures can design
properly matched Amplifiers and pre-amplifiers. This will also help reduce
the number of transceiver and amplifier failures caused by mismatched RF
settings.
>
> Suggested standards for VHF/UHF bases stations:
> 6 Meters 50 watts
> 2 Meters 25 watts
> 70 cm ? 25 watts
> 900 mc 10 watts
> 1.2 gig 10 watts
>
> The duty cycle of the competition grade system, will also need to be
greater than a 70% ?duty cycle.
> A typical EME link running JT65 requires a 50% for 10-30 minutes at a
time. ?The transistors and cooling system needs to be designed accordingly
to meet the competition grade requirements.
>
>
> HR-956-Pro Must have list:
>
> Spectrum display screen:
> ? ? ? ?I can't imagine building a new competition grade system without
this feature.
> ? ? ? ?It would be nice to see the band pass, before and after the filter
stages.
>
> Full computer remote control:
> Memory read/Read and save. ?All memory channels options must be exportable
to a CSV or similar file, including TX and RX frequencies, settings,
including Repeater or split frequency settings.
> All protocols must be Public protocols, no propriety software or licenses.
>
>
> Doppler Control (Manual):
>
> LEO SSB satellites are some of the hardest satellites two work because of
the amount of Doppler frequency change per second. ?Satellite Mode-B is very
hard (70 cm Uplink and 2-meter Downlink). ?While you are talking through a
SSB Mod-B satellite, you need to be simultaneously adjusting your
transmitter with every other word, in order to keep your downlink signal
centered inside the transponder.
>
> The Yasue FT-736R Satellite control knob, seems to work very well with
dual VFO's and provides you the ability to quickly change either TX or RX to
compensate for Doppler (among other features). ?The Knob style is much
easier to use than "Buttons". ?I found the Doppler VFO correction on some
newer radios to be very frustrating.
> The new HR-956-Pro must have the Yasue FT-736R control Knob and it must be
functional for both VFO's and Memory Channels.
>
>
> DSP Noise tools:
> The usual stuff.
>
>
> FM Center Tuning Meter:
> Many of the new satellites are LEO's (Low Earth Orbit), and many of these
satellites are running FM-5k. ?The reason for FM is because the Doppler
causes the 70cm band to drift over 20, kHz during a 10-20 minute pass. The
LEO SSB satellites using Mode J or Mode B are difficult to use because of
the large Doppler change. ?The FM mode, ?helps reduce the impact caused by
the higher Doppler.
>
> The FM Center Tuning Meter feature is a "must have" for a Satellite radio.
> When the FM satellite comes in range, just look at the FM meter and tune
the receiver until the needle is centered and you now know the exact
downlink for that Satellite. ? If the needle is left, turn the RX knob
slowly Right, ?If the needle is Right, turn the RX knob slowly left, very
simple.
> The Yaesu FT-736R has a FM Center Tuning Meter and it makes working FM
satellites much easier. ?The IC-910 has a blinking light to tell you your FM
satellite receiver frequency has drifted. Unfortunately, the blinking light
is useless in telling you if your frequency is high or low.
>
>
> HR-956-Pro, Nice to have list:
>
> General coverage receiver (50 - 1000 megacycles):
> The addition of a general coverage receiver would help with the sales of
the HR-956-Pro. ?However, it is very important that the general coverage
receiver, NOT degrade the performance of the satellite receivers. ?We are
not trying to build a super police scanner. One possible suggestion would-be
to make the general coverage receiver a separate circuit board, which would
be connected to a separate antenna port and thus would not degraded from the
performance of the satellite receivers.
>
> VHF / UHF Optional bands or Transverter:
> The Amateur radio community is constantly experimenting with new bands.
?It would be nice to have a Transverter module or expansion module for
future bands. ?In the USA these bands are becoming popular, 220mc, 900 mc, etc
>
> (All frequencies localized for each country)
>
>
> Size is important:
> To hold the hardware, band scope, filters and make the buttons easily
accessible, a box about the size of the IC-756 product seems to be the right
size.
>
> What should not be in the HR-956-Pro.
>
> No HF:
> No access to frequencies below 50 megacycles.
> The addition of HF to a satellite radio would only degrade the performance
of the weak signal satellite receivers.
> HF would also add to the cost of the transceiver and reduce its sales
potential.
> A competition grade VHF/UHF transceiver has no use for HF.
> HF would result in the radio being just another mediocre transceiver.
>
> No obsolete Serial ports:
> ?No RS-232 or TTL.
> These devices are so last century.
>
> DSTAR:
> The DSTAR mode is fun, I use it often and I have even been pushing ARISS
to install it on the International Space Station. ?As much as I like this
mode, it is not a requirement for a competition grade satellite system. ?I
would much rather have the money put into making the VHF/UHF receivers the
best possible.
>
>
> How much are we willing to pay for the HR-956-Pro:
>
> That depends on the performance, suggest price $2000 - $3000 USD
>
> Closing:
>
> If anyone knows of such a radio I would be interested to know who makes it.
>
>
> Sincerely
>
> WF1F ?Miles
> www.marexmg.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
--
Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 14:19:25 -0500
From: Andrew Glasbrenner <glasbrenner@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig
To: "Mark L. Hammond" <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <4B8C133D.5050909@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> How about IF tap (10.7MHz) and high speed packet ready (up to say, 76k
> or faster)?
>
> (Maybe I missed it, but I don't think I saw those 2 features...)
>
> 73,
>
> Mark N8MH
>
>
I dearly wish my 910 had an IF tap! That would mostly take care of the
high speed part too for me.
>> The manufactures of Transceivers and Amplifies need to agree upon a set
of standard power level so the third-party amplifier manufactures can design
properly matched Amplifiers and pre-amplifiers. This will also help reduce
the number of transceiver and amplifier failures caused by mismatched RF
settings.
>>
I'd prefer a menu settable power output for each band, like all of the
current Yaesu DC to Daylight rigs have.
>> The IC-910 has a blinking light to tell you your FM satellite receiver
frequency has drifted. Unfortunately, the blinking light is useless in
telling you if your frequency is high or low.
>>
>>
Yes, but if you press the AFC button on the 910, it will tune it for you!
>> No access to frequencies below 50 megacycles.
>>
Many serious 6m ops listen to utilities below 50Mhz to tell when the
banding is close to opening.
73, Drew KO4MA (Who'd settle for a full duplex FT-817)
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 11:24:15 -0800 (PST)
From: John Geiger <aa5jg@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig
To: MM <ka1rrw@xxxxx.xxx>, "Mark L. Hammond" <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <619272.72213.qm@xxxxxxxx.xxxx.xxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I would opt for higher power on the bands, with separate RF setting for each
band through a menu. Something like 100 watts on 6m 2m, 220 and 432 to
start with. It would be good for roving to have high enough power levels to
not have to take amps with you. And if you want to run an amp at home, you
can set the drive level in the menus and leave it there.
73s John AA5JG
--- On Mon, 3/1/10, Mark L. Hammond <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> From: Mark L. Hammond <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig
> To: "MM" <ka1rrw@xxxxx.xxx>
> Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 12:55 PM
> How about IF tap (10.7MHz) and high
> speed packet ready (up to say, 76k
> or faster)?
>
> (Maybe I missed it, but I don't think I saw those 2
> features...)
>
> 73,
>
> Mark N8MH
>
> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:44 PM, MM <ka1rrw@xxxxx.xxx>
> wrote:
> > My Ideal Competition Grade VHF/UHF Radio Wish list.
> >
> > It seems we are long over do for a Competition grade
> high performance VHF/UHF transceiver, which can also be used
> for Satellite operations. ? There are several competition
> grade HF transceivers on the market, however there are no
> high end competition grade VHF/UHF/Satellite systems on the
> marker.
> >
> > Most of the rigs I have seen ?which support VHF/UHF
> are either HF rigs that have had VHF/UHF slapped on, or low
> end VHF/UHF rigs, with HF slapped on.
> >
> > If we want the Amateur Radio manufactures to build us
> a "GREAT" VHF/UHF/Satellite system, then we need to tell
> them what we need.
> >
> > Here are some suggestions. ?Constructive comments
> welcome.
> >
> > This radio does not exist.
> > If the manufactures are interested in providing a new
> state of the art VHF/UHF radio to the Amateur Radio
> community, here is one opinion of what should be in next
> Competition Grade VHF/UHF Transceiver and what should not be
> in the radio.
> >
> > I am going to give this fictional radio a name
> HR-956-Pro.
> >
> >
> > What do we need:
> >
> > ? ? ? ? We need a competition grade VHF/UHF
> transceiver that will support Terrestrial-DX, Satellite and
> EME operations (Voice, CW and ?Digital-JT65).
> > ? ? ? ? The HR-956-Pro, needs to be able to
> interface with modern computers (HTML Browser, USB and or
> CAT-5).
> > ? ? ? ? The HR-956-Pro, needs to able to
> interface with modern Externally mounted Pre-amplifier (both
> power feeds and transmitter sequencing).
> > ? ? ? ? The HR-956-Pro, need to be able to
> interface with modern Solid State Amplifiers and Tube based
> amplifiers. ?The RF output per band needs to be
> standardized with the Amplifier manufactures to prevent
> transceiver and amplifier failures due to sequencing
> problems and RF mismatching.
> > ? ? ? ? TX/RX Sequencer built-in, to control
> external Preamps, Amplifies and other accessories
> (programmable).
> >
> > Receiver:
> > Of course we need a "Great" receiver, not another
> mediocre receiver.
> > Each receiver for each band needs to be a "Great"
> performer.
> >
> > No Birdies:
> > On a HF rig, a few Birdies do not usually cause
> serious issues, since the HF users are often listening to
> signals "Above" the noise floor. ?On a Satellite Radio, we
> are often listening to signals 10-30 dB, "Below" the Noise
> floor. ?Internally generated birdies are a serious problem
> for weak signal VHF/UHF operations.
> >
> > Filters:
> > Each mode will need its own selection of DSP filters.
> ?The filters would also affect one of the Line-level
> outputs to the external PC. ?There are times when want to
> send Filtered or unfiltered audio to your external PC for
> Digital signal processing. ?One of the line-level outputs
> should be taped before the HR-956-Pro Filters, the other
> line-level output should be taped after the HR-956-Pro
> filters. ?The TX and RX filters should be independently
> selectable.
> > The Filters need to be tested to verify they will
> support Satellite Mode-J (TX on 2-meters while listening on
> 435-438)
> >
> > Example:
> > FM-5k, ?Filters 15k, 10k and 8k filters.
> > AM ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Filters 10k, 6k, 3k, etc.
> > SSB ? ? ? ? ? ? Filters 4.0k, 3.0k, 2.5k, 2.0k,
> etc.
> >
> > Other Modes:
> > CW, FM-2.5k, Data
> >
> > Audio Quality:
> > Life is too short for QRP or Poor Audio.
> > It's not the number of contacts that?s important,
> it?s the quality of the contact.
> > On the audio side, the HR-956-Pro needs to be able to
> support a wider range of audio through most of the stages.
> ?Of course the radio needs to meet FCC and other
> requirements, however we can still design the radio to
> deliver a wider bandwidth of good sounding audio.
> > Let's shoot for 100-4000 Hz, on both TX and RX audio
> circuits. ?This will also mean, that a better stock
> microphone design will be required.
> >
> >
> > VHF / UHF Bands built-in, with competition grade
> TX/RX:
> > 6-meters ? ? ? ?50-54
> > 2-meters ? ? ? ?144-148
> > 70-cm ? ? ? ? ? 420 - 450
> > 23-cm ? ? ? ? ? 1280 - 1300
> > (All frequencies localized for each country)
> >
> > Transmitter outputs:
> > A high power transceiver is less desirable than a low
> power transceiver.
> >
> > Let me explain:
> > For serious Terrestrial DX and EME you need to run
> more than 100 watts. A VHF/UHF transceiver designed for high
> power ( 100 watt range) transmitting, would not be
> compatible with third-party amplifiers or pre-amplifiers.
> >
> > Most VHF/UHF amps are designed for 25 or 50 watts
> maximum input.
> >
> > The manufactures of Transceivers and Amplifies need to
> agree upon a set of standard power level so the third-party
> amplifier manufactures can design properly matched
> Amplifiers and pre-amplifiers. This will also help reduce
> the number of transceiver and amplifier failures caused by
> mismatched RF settings.
> >
> > Suggested standards for VHF/UHF bases stations:
> > 6 Meters 50 watts
> > 2 Meters 25 watts
> > 70 cm ? 25 watts
> > 900 mc 10 watts
> > 1.2 gig 10 watts
> >
> > The duty cycle of the competition grade system, will
> also need to be greater than a 70% ?duty cycle.
> > A typical EME link running JT65 requires a 50% for
> 10-30 minutes at a time. ?The transistors and cooling
> system needs to be designed accordingly to meet the
> competition grade requirements.
> >
> >
> > HR-956-Pro Must have list:
> >
> > Spectrum display screen:
> > ? ? ? ?I can't imagine building a new competition
> grade system without this feature.
> > ? ? ? ?It would be nice to see the band pass,
> before and after the filter stages.
> >
> > Full computer remote control:
> > Memory read/Read and save. ?All memory channels
> options must be exportable to a CSV or similar file,
> including TX and RX frequencies, settings, including
> Repeater or split frequency settings.
> > All protocols must be Public protocols, no propriety
> software or licenses.
> >
> >
> > Doppler Control (Manual):
> >
> > LEO SSB satellites are some of the hardest satellites
> two work because of the amount of Doppler frequency change
> per second. ?Satellite Mode-B is very hard (70 cm Uplink
> and 2-meter Downlink). ?While you are talking through a SSB
> Mod-B satellite, you need to be simultaneously adjusting
> your transmitter with every other word, in order to keep
> your downlink signal centered inside the transponder.
> >
> > The Yasue FT-736R Satellite control knob, seems to
> work very well with dual VFO's and provides you the ability
> to quickly change either TX or RX to compensate for Doppler
> (among other features). ?The Knob style is much easier to
> use than "Buttons". ?I found the Doppler VFO correction on
> some newer radios to be very frustrating.
> > The new HR-956-Pro must have the Yasue FT-736R control
> Knob and it must be functional for both VFO's and Memory
> Channels.
> >
> >
> > DSP Noise tools:
> > The usual stuff.
> >
> >
> > FM Center Tuning Meter:
> > Many of the new satellites are LEO's (Low Earth
> Orbit), and many of these satellites are running FM-5k.
> ?The reason for FM is because the Doppler causes the 70cm
> band to drift over 20, kHz during a 10-20 minute pass. The
> LEO SSB satellites using Mode J or Mode B are difficult to
> use because of the large Doppler change. ?The FM mode,
> ?helps reduce the impact caused by the higher Doppler.
> >
> > The FM Center Tuning Meter feature is a "must have"
> for a Satellite radio.
> > When the FM satellite comes in range, just look at the
> FM meter and tune the receiver until the needle is centered
> and you now know the exact downlink for that Satellite. ?
> If the needle is left, turn the RX knob slowly Right, ?If
> the needle is Right, turn the RX knob slowly left, very
> simple.
> > The Yaesu FT-736R has a FM Center Tuning Meter and it
> makes working FM satellites much easier. ?The IC-910 has a
> blinking light to tell you your FM satellite receiver
> frequency has drifted. Unfortunately, the blinking light is
> useless in telling you if your frequency is high or low.
> >
> >
> > HR-956-Pro, Nice to have list:
> >
> > General coverage receiver (50 - 1000 megacycles):
> > The addition of a general coverage receiver would help
> with the sales of the HR-956-Pro. ?However, it is very
> important that the general coverage receiver, NOT degrade
> the performance of the satellite receivers. ?We are not
> trying to build a super police scanner. One possible
> suggestion would-be to make the general coverage receiver a
> separate circuit board, which would be connected to a
> separate antenna port and thus would not degraded from the
> performance of the satellite receivers.
> >
> > VHF / UHF Optional bands or Transverter:
> > The Amateur radio community is constantly
> experimenting with new bands. ?It would be nice to have a
> Transverter module or expansion module for future bands.
> ?In the USA these bands are becoming popular, 220mc, 900
> mc, etc
> >
> > (All frequencies localized for each country)
> >
> >
> > Size is important:
> > To hold the hardware, band scope, filters and make the
> buttons easily accessible, a box about the size of the
> IC-756 product seems to be the right size.
> >
> > What should not be in the HR-956-Pro.
> >
> > No HF:
> > No access to frequencies below 50 megacycles.
> > The addition of HF to a satellite radio would only
> degrade the performance of the weak signal satellite
> receivers.
> > HF would also add to the cost of the transceiver and
> reduce its sales potential.
> > A competition grade VHF/UHF transceiver has no use for
> HF.
> > HF would result in the radio being just another
> mediocre transceiver.
> >
> > No obsolete Serial ports:
> > ?No RS-232 or TTL.
> > These devices are so last century.
> >
> > DSTAR:
> > The DSTAR mode is fun, I use it often and I have even
> been pushing ARISS to install it on the International Space
> Station. ?As much as I like this mode, it is not a
> requirement for a competition grade satellite system. ?I
> would much rather have the money put into making the VHF/UHF
> receivers the best possible.
> >
> >
> > How much are we willing to pay for the HR-956-Pro:
> >
> > That depends on the performance, suggest price $2000 -
> $3000 USD
> >
> > Closing:
> >
> > If anyone knows of such a radio I would be interested
> to know who makes it.
> >
> >
> > Sincerely
> >
> > WF1F ?Miles
> > www.marexmg.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx.
> Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the
> amateur satellite program!
> > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx.
> Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
> satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 11:32:18 -0800 (PST)
From: John Geiger <aa5jg@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig
To: "Mark L. Hammond" <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx>, Andrew Glasbrenner
<glasbrenner@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <399647.89002.qm@xxxxxxxx.xxxx.xxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
--- On Mon, 3/1/10, Andrew Glasbrenner <glasbrenner@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> >> No access to frequencies below 50 megacycles.
> >>? ???
> Many serious 6m ops listen to utilities below 50Mhz to tell
> when the
> banding is close to opening.
You also need 10m for Mode A. I'm still hoping that RS12/13 pops back to
life like AO7 and will have its Mode T going again. That was alot of fun.
73s John AA5JG
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:47:40 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Ken Ernandes <n2wwd@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig
To: "Mark L. Hammond" <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx>, MM <ka1rrw@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID:
<2264445.1267472860280.JavaMail.root@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx.xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I'm not normally one to throw cold water on creative ideas, but I will put
myself in the position of the potential manufacturer. What any manufacturer
would need to even contemplate this project is good answers to a few basic
questions:
1. Can I come up with a design to these specifications that I can sell in
the realistic price range of the typical amateur operator?
2. Is there a large enough market out there that I can make a profit on
this exercise?
My guess is the manufacturers wouldn't touch this one with 3.048-meter pole
without at least one functioning high altitude satellite on orbit. I
realize these are frustrating times, but I think you'll need to come up with
more than just a wish list. Perhaps a group could get together and
prototype portions to make a plausible case that this can be built
economically.
Can it be done? Probably... But those who really want it will probably
need to invest a lot of sweat equity to prove it.
73, Ken N2WWD
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Mark L. Hammond" <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx>
>Sent: Mar 1, 2010 1:55 PM
>To: MM <ka1rrw@xxxxx.xxx>
>Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
>Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Wish List, The Ideal VHF/UHF Sat Rig
>
>How about IF tap (10.7MHz) and high speed packet ready (up to say, 76k
>or faster)?
>
>(Maybe I missed it, but I don't think I saw those 2 features...)
>
>73,
>
>Mark N8MH
>
>On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:44 PM, MM <ka1rrw@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>> My Ideal Competition Grade VHF/UHF Radio Wish list.
>>
>> It seems we are long over do for a Competition grade high performance
VHF/UHF transceiver, which can also be used for Satellite operations. ?
There are several competition grade HF transceivers on the market, however
there are no high end competition grade VHF/UHF/Satellite systems on the
marker.
>>
>> Most of the rigs I have seen ?which support VHF/UHF are either HF rigs
that have had VHF/UHF slapped on, or low end VHF/UHF rigs, with HF slapped on.
>>
>> If we want the Amateur Radio manufactures to build us a "GREAT"
VHF/UHF/Satellite system, then we need to tell them what we need.
>>
>> Here are some suggestions. ?Constructive comments welcome.
>>
>> This radio does not exist.
>> If the manufactures are interested in providing a new state of the art
VHF/UHF radio to the Amateur Radio community, here is one opinion of what
should be in next Competition Grade VHF/UHF Transceiver and what should not
be in the radio.
>>
>> I am going to give this fictional radio a name HR-956-Pro.
>>
>>
>> What do we need:
>>
>> ? ? ? ? We need a competition grade VHF/UHF transceiver that will support
Terrestrial-DX, Satellite and EME operations (Voice, CW and ?Digital-JT65).
>> ? ? ? ? The HR-956-Pro, needs to be able to interface with modern
computers (HTML Browser, USB and or CAT-5).
>> ? ? ? ? The HR-956-Pro, needs to able to interface with modern Externally
mounted Pre-amplifier (both power feeds and transmitter sequencing).
>> ? ? ? ? The HR-956-Pro, need to be able to interface with modern Solid
State Amplifiers and Tube based amplifiers. ?The RF output per band needs to
be standardized with the Amplifier manufactures to prevent transceiver and
amplifier failures due to sequencing problems and RF mismatching.
>> ? ? ? ? TX/RX Sequencer built-in, to control external Preamps, Amplifies
and other accessories (programmable).
>>
>> Receiver:
>> Of course we need a "Great" receiver, not another mediocre receiver.
>> Each receiver for each band needs to be a "Great" performer.
>>
>> No Birdies:
>> On a HF rig, a few Birdies do not usually cause serious issues, since the
HF users are often listening to signals "Above" the noise floor. ?On a
Satellite Radio, we are often listening to signals 10-30 dB, "Below" the
Noise floor. ?Internally generated birdies are a serious problem for weak
signal VHF/UHF operations.
>>
>> Filters:
>> Each mode will need its own selection of DSP filters. ?The filters would
also affect one of the Line-level outputs to the external PC. ?There are
times when want to send Filtered or unfiltered audio to your external PC for
Digital signal processing. ?One of the line-level outputs should be taped
before the HR-956-Pro Filters, the other line-level output should be taped
after the HR-956-Pro filters. ?The TX and RX filters should be independently
selectable.
>> The Filters need to be tested to verify they will support Satellite
Mode-J (TX on 2-meters while listening on 435-438)
>>
>> Example:
>> FM-5k, ?Filters 15k, 10k and 8k filters.
>> AM ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Filters 10k, 6k, 3k, etc.
>> SSB ? ? ? ? ? ? Filters 4.0k, 3.0k, 2.5k, 2.0k, etc.
>>
>> Other Modes:
>> CW, FM-2.5k, Data
>>
>> Audio Quality:
>> Life is too short for QRP or Poor Audio.
>> It's not the number of contacts that?s important, it?s the quality of the
contact.
>> On the audio side, the HR-956-Pro needs to be able to support a wider
range of audio through most of the stages. ?Of course the radio needs to
meet FCC and other requirements, however we can still design the radio to
deliver a wider bandwidth of good sounding audio.
>> Let's shoot for 100-4000 Hz, on both TX and RX audio circuits. ?This will
also mean, that a better stock microphone design will be required.
>>
>>
>> VHF / UHF Bands built-in, with competition grade TX/RX:
>> 6-meters ? ? ? ?50-54
>> 2-meters ? ? ? ?144-148
>> 70-cm ? ? ? ? ? 420 - 450
>> 23-cm ? ? ? ? ? 1280 - 1300
>> (All frequencies localized for each country)
>>
>> Transmitter outputs:
>> A high power transceiver is less desirable than a low power transceiver.
>>
>> Let me explain:
>> For serious Terrestrial DX and EME you need to run more than 100 watts. A
VHF/UHF transceiver designed for high power ( 100 watt range) transmitting,
would not be compatible with third-party amplifiers or pre-amplifiers.
>>
>> Most VHF/UHF amps are designed for 25 or 50 watts maximum input.
>>
>> The manufactures of Transceivers and Amplifies need to agree upon a set
of standard power level so the third-party amplifier manufactures can design
properly matched Amplifiers and pre-amplifiers. This will also help reduce
the number of transceiver and amplifier failures caused by mismatched RF
settings.
>>
>> Suggested standards for VHF/UHF bases stations:
>> 6 Meters 50 watts
>> 2 Meters 25 watts
>> 70 cm ? 25 watts
>> 900 mc 10 watts
>> 1.2 gig 10 watts
>>
>> The duty cycle of the competition grade system, will also need to be
greater than a 70% ?duty cycle.
>> A typical EME link running JT65 requires a 50% for 10-30 minutes at a
time. ?The transistors and cooling system needs to be designed accordingly
to meet the competition grade requirements.
>>
>>
>> HR-956-Pro Must have list:
>>
>> Spectrum display screen:
>> ? ? ? ?I can't imagine building a new competition grade system without
this feature.
>> ? ? ? ?It would be nice to see the band pass, before and after the filter
stages.
>>
>> Full computer remote control:
>> Memory read/Read and save. ?All memory channels options must be
exportable to a CSV or similar file, including TX and RX frequencies,
settings, including Repeater or split frequency settings.
>> All protocols must be Public protocols, no propriety software or licenses.
>>
>>
>> Doppler Control (Manual):
>>
>> LEO SSB satellites are some of the hardest satellites two work because of
the amount of Doppler frequency change per second. ?Satellite Mode-B is very
hard (70 cm Uplink and 2-meter Downlink). ?While you are talking through a
SSB Mod-B satellite, you need to be simultaneously adjusting your
transmitter with every other word, in order to keep your downlink signal
centered inside the transponder.
>>
>> The Yasue FT-736R Satellite control knob, seems to work very well with
dual VFO's and provides you the ability to quickly change either TX or RX to
compensate for Doppler (among other features). ?The Knob style is much
easier to use than "Buttons". ?I found the Doppler VFO correction on some
newer radios to be very frustrating.
>> The new HR-956-Pro must have the Yasue FT-736R control Knob and it must
be functional for both VFO's and Memory Channels.
>>
>>
>> DSP Noise tools:
>> The usual stuff.
>>
>>
>> FM Center Tuning Meter:
>> Many of the new satellites are LEO's (Low Earth Orbit), and many of these
satellites are running FM-5k. ?The reason for FM is because the Doppler
causes the 70cm band to drift over 20, kHz during a 10-20 minute pass. The
LEO SSB satellites using Mode J or Mode B are difficult to use because of
the large Doppler change. ?The FM mode, ?helps reduce the impact caused by
the higher Doppler.
>>
>> The FM Center Tuning Meter feature is a "must have" for a Satellite radio.
>> When the FM satellite comes in range, just look at the FM meter and tune
the receiver until the needle is centered and you now know the exact
downlink for that Satellite. ? If the needle is left, turn the RX knob
slowly Right, ?If the needle is Right, turn the RX knob slowly left, very
simple.
>> The Yaesu FT-736R has a FM Center Tuning Meter and it makes working FM
satellites much easier. ?The IC-910 has a blinking light to tell you your FM
satellite receiver frequency has drifted. Unfortunately, the blinking light
is useless in telling you if your frequency is high or low.
>>
>>
>> HR-956-Pro, Nice to have list:
>>
>> General coverage receiver (50 - 1000 megacycles):
>> The addition of a general coverage receiver would help with the sales of
the HR-956-Pro. ?However, it is very important that the general coverage
receiver, NOT degrade the performance of the satellite receivers. ?We are
not trying to build a super police scanner. One possible suggestion would-be
to make the general coverage receiver a separate circuit board, which would
be connected to a separate antenna port and thus would not degraded from the
performance of the satellite receivers.
>>
>> VHF / UHF Optional bands or Transverter:
>> The Amateur radio community is constantly experimenting with new bands.
?It would be nice to have a Transverter module or expansion module for
future bands. ?In the USA these bands are becoming popular, 220mc, 900 mc, etc
>>
>> (All frequencies localized for each country)
>>
>>
>> Size is important:
>> To hold the hardware, band scope, filters and make the buttons easily
accessible, a box about the size of the IC-756 product seems to be the right
size.
>>
>> What should not be in the HR-956-Pro.
>>
>> No HF:
>> No access to frequencies below 50 megacycles.
>> The addition of HF to a satellite radio would only degrade the
performance of the weak signal satellite receivers.
>> HF would also add to the cost of the transceiver and reduce its sales
potential.
>> A competition grade VHF/UHF transceiver has no use for HF.
>> HF would result in the radio being just another mediocre transceiver.
>>
>> No obsolete Serial ports:
>> ?No RS-232 or TTL.
>> These devices are so last century.
>>
>> DSTAR:
>> The DSTAR mode is fun, I use it often and I have even been pushing ARISS
to install it on the International Space Station. ?As much as I like this
mode, it is not a requirement for a competition grade satellite system. ?I
would much rather have the money put into making the VHF/UHF receivers the
best possible.
>>
>>
>> How much are we willing to pay for the HR-956-Pro:
>>
>> That depends on the performance, suggest price $2000 - $3000 USD
>>
>> Closing:
>>
>> If anyone knows of such a radio I would be interested to know who makes it.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely
>>
>> WF1F ?Miles
>> www.marexmg.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
>
>_______________________________________________
>Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 5, Issue 101
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