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CX2SA > SATDIG 02.10.09 05:37l 1304 Lines 48292 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: CX2SA@CX2SA.LAV.URY.SA
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Arrow antenna reconfiguration results - UPDATE (Jeff Yanko)
2. AO-7 Mode A (ps8rf Piraja)
3. Solar Power (I was wrong) (Robert Bruninga)
4. Re: Solar Power (I was wrong) (Jeff Yanko)
5. Re: Solar Power (I was wrong) (Pete Rowe)
6. info wanted (w3vvp)
7. Re: Solar Power (I was wrong) (Jim Jerzycke)
8. Arrow 11 Antenna performance from the designer (Peter)
9. Re: Solar Power (I was wrong) (Jeff Yanko)
10. Re: Arrow antenna reconfiguration results - UPDATE
(Charles Suprin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:27:51 -0700
From: "Jeff Yanko" <wb3jfs@xxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Arrow antenna reconfiguration results - UPDATE
To: "Charles Suprin" <hamaa1vs@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: Joe <nss@xxx.xxx>, AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>, "Gary \"Joe\"
Mayfield" <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <91BB339B0D9F426D8AE0EAFDABD50D81@xxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Charles and the group,
FB on the numbers. Interesting to say the least and thanks for taking the
time to look further into this topic.
Questions? I have a few after looking at these numbers and performing more
observations.
First, are you testing just the diplexer and not the diplexer and the
antenna combined? This could result in an overall number and not just the
diplexer alone. How could there be a large discrepency between preliminary
reports, 2.65dB and .5dB now. Could be equipment calibration, human error,
etc. from previously tested, or attempted testing of the device. I don't
believe any improvements have been made to the Arrow diplexer, but who knows?
Second, I switched back to the Arrow diplexer and made another comparison
with the Comet diplexer. Again, no comparison, the Comet outperformed. Why
would this happen if the two are pretty close to one another in numbers.
The Comet has .25db loss at VHF and .26 at UHF.
Third, with the Arrow diplexer I wouldn't begin to receive the birds until
almost 3 minutes after AOS, with the Comet diplexer a minute to 1.5 minutes
after AOS. Yes, watch calibrated to WWV and multiple times of acquiring the
birds. I've tried both setups with the HT and D710 and they both show the
same results respectively, Arrow diplexer vs. Comet diplexer. The antenna
and coax remain the same, the difference, the diplexer. May not be test lab
quality but something is proving itself. What is it?
Finally, is it just my Arrow diplexer? Doesn't appear to be shorted or any
defects to it. Actually looks great and assembled very well. I've
encountered others saying the same thing. However, a very noticable
difference to the overall performance.
73,
Jeff WB3JFS
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Suprin
To: Jeff Yanko
Cc: Joe ; Gary "Joe" Mayfield ; AMSAT-BB
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Arrow antenna reconfiguration results - UPDATE
Howdy Jeff,
Someone asked and here we go. A file attachment follows.
Actually the diplexer looks pretty good. Less than half a db of loss at
VHF and around half a dB at UHF. I checked the calibration and that was
within tenth of a dB over the entire range.
Any questions.
Charles
AA1VS
On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 6:26 AM, Jeff Yanko <wb3jfs@xxx.xxx> wrote:
Hi Joe and all,
I doubt if the Arrow diplexer has 20dB of loss. If it did, we'd never
receive a signal! :)
I believe somebody here on the -bb will be performing a test on the Arrow
diplexer using a vector/network analyzer. It will be interesting to say
the
least. There were preliminary reports saying the device had a loss
anywhere
from 2.65 to 2.80dB. That's close enough to 3dB which is technically half
power loss. Add the loss of a short piece of coax and it will certainly
be
pushed over the 3dB line.
If I recall correctly, cross polarity is also a 3dB loss. I have noticed
that when I rotate the antenna I might get a stronger downlink but I never
lose it when I rotate it back. Before, when I would do that it would drop
once I rotated in either direction from the peak signal. Basically what
is
going on is the lossy device is removed and replaced with a more efficient
one, that extra net gain you just boosted now shows how the system on the
antenna side of the diplexer is truly performing.
I don't have an antenna analysis program to perform a test, but what
does a
7 element 440 yagi pattern look like and what is its overall gain?
What we need to do is break down the antenna configuration into 3
segments,
see what their losses and gains are then combine them for the overall
figure. The 3 segment would be the antenna, the diplexer and the coax.
Each one will be tested individually to give an accurate number for each.
73,
Jeff WB3JFS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe" <nss@xxx.xxx>
To: "Gary "Joe" Mayfield" <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Cc: "'AMSAT-BB'" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 6:42 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Arrow antenna reconfiguration results - UPDATE
> as in the texts below, there is something else going on here.
>
> That Diplexor can not be all that bad. two reasons.
>
> How many db down is the front to side of that antenna?
>
> and I can not imaging someone would sell a diplexor that has greater
> than 20 db of losses.
>
> because of the statement that how criticalpolarity was with the
> original, and now the antenna has to be nearly 90 degrees cross
> polarized to make it drop out uhh
>
> that close to 30 db,
>
> at least 20,,
>
> something else is going on here
>
> Gary "Joe" Mayfield wrote:
>
>>>
>>>Another issue I came across was how wide the beamwidth is of the Arrow
>>>Antenna between the Arrow diplexer and the new diplexer. I was
wondering
>>>
>>>
>>if
>>
>>
>>>this was going to happen and it did. The reason that this happened was
>>>
>>>
>>with
>>
>>
>>>the old diplexer, the signal attenuated so much that you had to be
>>>pointed
>>>right smack dab on the bird, a few degrees off and you lost the signal.
>>>Now, with the new diplexer, you can point the beam in the general
>>>
>>>
>>direction
>>
>>
>>>and still copy the bird. In most cases I had to turn the beam 90
degrees
>>>before I completely lost the downlink! Twisting the antenna to make
>>>polarization changes makes absolutely no difference now. This also
>>>attributes to the fact that now I'm copying the entire pass without
>>>
>>>
>>dropouts
>>
>>
>>>or fades. Makes sense. What I've regained over the lossy diplexer
makes
>>>
>>>
>>up
>>
>>
>>>for any polarization differences, etc. for a better copiable signal.
>>>
>>>Next weekend I will have to try more passes and get a feel of how much
>>>
>>>
>>this
>>
>>
>>>system has changed.
>>>
>>>
>>>73,
>>>
>>>Jeff WB3JFS
>>>Las Vegas, NV
>>>DM26
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
>>>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>program!
>>>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
>>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
>>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
>>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>Version: 8.5.416 / Virus Database: 270.13.113/2395 - Release Date:
>>09/25/09 17:52:00
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 02:32:32 +0300
From: ps8rf Piraja <ps8rf@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-7 Mode A
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <SNT121-W1050052DD61A015243C5D6E0D30@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello All,
Yesterday, when the AO-7 has radically changed the mode B to mode A, I
noticed that the amount of QSO in mode "A" increased significantly, we see
in the log of the AO-7. The signals are stronger at 29.450 MHz. Now the
night, I heard stations of PY5LF, PY4ZBZ and especially Joe, K3SZH with
signal 5 / 7 at the end of the orbit, in SSB. Is a wonderful sign in mode
"A". I use a antenna 40 meters of wire and a 3 element yagi. I would like to
invite the users of AO-7 to take this chance that the satellite is giving us
to keep the QSO in mode A, I do not know how long it will last this facility.
AO-7 Log: http://www.planetemily.com/ao7/ao7log.php
73
Piraja, PS8RF
_________________________________________________________________
Novo Internet Explorer 8. Baixe agora, ? gr?tis!
http://brasil.microsoft.com.br/IE8/mergulhe/?utm_source=MSN%3BHotmail&utm_medi
um=Tagline&utm_campaign=IE8
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 20:37:45 -0400
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Solar Power (I was wrong)
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <23A4D4DBB8954A53BA4AD53B23C29CF4@xxxxx.xxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Since Satellite design is heavy into Solar power, and I talk
about that a lot, you may have heard me compare my Solar car to
Solar panels on the roof of your house as not economical, I WAS
WRONG. I was overlooking many recent changes in the
environment:
1) Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970
2) PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and 2009
economic bust
4) $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU
5) Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to 70% of
battery systems
6) Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years
7) Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates they
charge you.
8) Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per 1Kw
system per year
9) Payback is at least 10% per year or better
10) The same money in the bank gets 1% interest
So I was wrong in not keeping current with all the changing
environment, and now I am full speed to get my system approved
and built and correct any miss-guidance I may have helped
propagate.
Sorry. I am claiming this particular email is on-topic because
of public statements to the contrary I have made at satellite
forums. But this hot topic should probably spin off elsewhere.
We need a HAM Solar Power group somewhere...?
Summary: Do NOT make the mistake (as most of us do) of thinking
in terms of stand-alone Battery back-up solar power systems .
They cost more and you don't need it in most places where you
have access to the grid. They cost $5 to $10,000 more, are only
70% efficient (compared to 95% for grid-tie) and are a never
ending maintenance headache. Instead, most any enterprising ham
should be able to provide his own backup power using a cheap 1
kW inverter for about $150 from any auto store or radio shack
running off his car's 12V system for any power outages.
That, a few deep cycle batteries, (and using CFL lightbulbs in
your house) will give you enough emergency power to operate your
full Ham station, all the lights in the house you want plus your
refrigerator for as long as you can buy gas. But the other
99.99% of the time, sell your solar power to the power company
(at peak rates during the day) and buy it back cheap at night
(you win and you don't even have to worrry about batteries)...
And even if your grid-tie solar array produces nothing (in the
way of AC power) when the grid goes out, you still have many
Killowatts of DC power on your roof, that you can surely find
lots of things to do with until the grid comes back. For
example, have the electrician wire a 250 volt string of the 200
Watt solar panels in the array to a DPDT switch so they can be
disconnected from the Grid Tie system and the 250 VDC can be
available to you. THen you can plug in as many modern DC/DC
pwer supplies into that 250 VDC to give you LOTS of amps at 12
volts, or ... almost any modern gizmo has a universal power
supply input that will run on anything from 110V to 330V DC as
is.
Anyway, for similar hints www.aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
Sorry for the off-topic. But I was wrong. PV works! (even in
Maryland). If you live in the SW, you are lucky, and it works
TWICE as much or at HALF the price!
A Born-again Home PV junkie
Bob, WB4APR
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 18:04:43 -0700
From: "Jeff Yanko" <wb3jfs@xxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong)
To: <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>, <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <7AF2059FA23C4245934038412615C939@xxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Interesting topic. Here in the desert, Las Vegas, NV, I've seen a few homes
with solar panels on their roofs. Not a lot but a few here and there.
Actually, I see more with roof heating systems for the pools than anything
else. However, I'm sure there are more out there than I'm seeing. In any
case, a topic has risen about generating and selling power back to the
utility company.....taxes. Some states are now implementing taxes on
residential owners who generate and "sell back" their power to the utility
company. Pennsylvania happens to be one of them. I believe the standing is
if you sell back over 50,000 watts of power you will incur additional taxes,
adding to your state personal income tax. Apparantly, after 50,000 watts
your considered a "generating" or "generator" entity and are subject to tax.
Lets say you were able to generate and sell back 100,000 watts to the
utility company. The first 50,000 watts would be "free". From then on out,
it's taxed. Not sure what rate they are or would be applying but lets say
15 cents per KW. At 50,000 watts that would be $7.50. Doesn't sound like
much, then again 15 cents per KW is probably nowhere near what they really
want.
I believe you will see this happen more often as states look for additional
revenue.
73,
Jeff WB3JFS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:37 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Solar Power (I was wrong)
> Since Satellite design is heavy into Solar power, and I talk
> about that a lot, you may have heard me compare my Solar car to
> Solar panels on the roof of your house as not economical, I WAS
> WRONG. I was overlooking many recent changes in the
> environment:
>
> 1) Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970
> 2) PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and 2009
> economic bust
> 4) $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU
> 5) Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to 70% of
> battery systems
> 6) Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years
> 7) Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates they
> charge you.
> 8) Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per 1Kw
> system per year
> 9) Payback is at least 10% per year or better
> 10) The same money in the bank gets 1% interest
>
> So I was wrong in not keeping current with all the changing
> environment, and now I am full speed to get my system approved
> and built and correct any miss-guidance I may have helped
> propagate.
>
> Sorry. I am claiming this particular email is on-topic because
> of public statements to the contrary I have made at satellite
> forums. But this hot topic should probably spin off elsewhere.
> We need a HAM Solar Power group somewhere...?
>
> Summary: Do NOT make the mistake (as most of us do) of thinking
> in terms of stand-alone Battery back-up solar power systems .
> They cost more and you don't need it in most places where you
> have access to the grid. They cost $5 to $10,000 more, are only
> 70% efficient (compared to 95% for grid-tie) and are a never
> ending maintenance headache. Instead, most any enterprising ham
> should be able to provide his own backup power using a cheap 1
> kW inverter for about $150 from any auto store or radio shack
> running off his car's 12V system for any power outages.
>
> That, a few deep cycle batteries, (and using CFL lightbulbs in
> your house) will give you enough emergency power to operate your
> full Ham station, all the lights in the house you want plus your
> refrigerator for as long as you can buy gas. But the other
> 99.99% of the time, sell your solar power to the power company
> (at peak rates during the day) and buy it back cheap at night
> (you win and you don't even have to worrry about batteries)...
>
> And even if your grid-tie solar array produces nothing (in the
> way of AC power) when the grid goes out, you still have many
> Killowatts of DC power on your roof, that you can surely find
> lots of things to do with until the grid comes back. For
> example, have the electrician wire a 250 volt string of the 200
> Watt solar panels in the array to a DPDT switch so they can be
> disconnected from the Grid Tie system and the 250 VDC can be
> available to you. THen you can plug in as many modern DC/DC
> pwer supplies into that 250 VDC to give you LOTS of amps at 12
> volts, or ... almost any modern gizmo has a universal power
> supply input that will run on anything from 110V to 330V DC as
> is.
>
> Anyway, for similar hints www.aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
>
> Sorry for the off-topic. But I was wrong. PV works! (even in
> Maryland). If you live in the SW, you are lucky, and it works
> TWICE as much or at HALF the price!
>
> A Born-again Home PV junkie
> Bob, WB4APR
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 18:46:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Pete Rowe <ptrowe@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong)
To: bruninga@xxxx.xxxx amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxxx Jeff Yanko <wb3jfs@xxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <396388.21190.qm@xxxxxxxx.xxxx.xxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I've recently looked into PV home installations in California.
Unfortunately, here at least, the power company is only required to pay
you the WHOLESALE cost of electricity. This amounts to 3 to 4 cents per
kw-hr. Hence, most folks size their PV system to exactly meet their
needs. I have three friends who have had systems running for 3 years.
You get credits from the power company for the power you generated
during the year. Then they even up at the end of the year. If you made
more electricity than you used, you lose it. If you made less, then you
owe them the difference. Since they have sized the systems correctly,
they owe very little money.
One of my friends installed a water spray system to cool the panels since
they lose efficiency fast as the temperature goes up. Also, it doesn't
take much dust or bird poop to cut the efficiency. So if you install a
system, be prepared to get on the roof every month or so to clean the
panels.
Regards,
Pete
WA6WOA
--- On Thu, 10/1/09, Jeff Yanko <wb3jfs@xxx.xxx> wrote:
From: Jeff Yanko <wb3jfs@xxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong)
To: bruninga@xxxx.xxxx amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 6:04 PM
Interesting topic.? Here in the desert, Las Vegas, NV, I've seen a few homes
with solar panels on their roofs.? Not a lot but a few here and there.
Actually, I see more with roof heating systems for the pools than anything
else.? However, I'm sure there are more out there than I'm seeing.? In any
case, a topic has risen about generating and selling power back to the
utility company.....taxes.? Some states are now implementing taxes on
residential owners who generate and "sell back" their power to the utility
company.? Pennsylvania happens to be one of them.? I believe the standing is
if you sell back over 50,000 watts of power you will incur additional taxes,
adding to your state personal income tax.? Apparantly, after 50,000 watts
your considered a "generating" or "generator" entity and are subject to tax.
Lets say you were able to generate and sell back 100,000 watts to the
utility company.? The first 50,000 watts would be "free".? From then on out,
it's taxed.? Not sure what rate they are or would be applying but lets say
15 cents per KW. At 50,000 watts that would be $7.50.? Doesn't sound like
much, then again 15 cents per KW is probably nowhere near what they really
want.
I believe you will see this happen more often as states look for additional
revenue.
73,
Jeff? WB3JFS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:37 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Solar Power (I was wrong)
> Since Satellite design is heavy into Solar power, and I talk
> about that a lot, you may have heard me compare my Solar car to
> Solar panels on the roof of your house as not economical, I WAS
> WRONG.? I was overlooking many recent changes in the
> environment:
>
> 1) Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970
> 2) PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and 2009
> economic bust
> 4) $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU
> 5) Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to 70% of
> battery systems
> 6) Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years
> 7) Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates they
> charge you.
> 8) Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per 1Kw
> system per year
> 9) Payback is at least 10% per year or better
> 10) The same money in the bank gets 1% interest
>
> So I was wrong in not keeping current with all the changing
> environment, and now I am full speed to get my system approved
> and built and correct any miss-guidance I may have helped
> propagate.
>
> Sorry. I am claiming this particular email is on-topic because
> of public statements to the contrary I have made at satellite
> forums.? But this hot topic should probably spin off elsewhere.
> We need a HAM Solar Power group somewhere...?
>
> Summary:? Do NOT make the mistake (as most of us do) of thinking
> in terms of stand-alone Battery back-up solar power systems .
> They cost more and you don't need it in most places where you
> have access to the grid.? They cost $5 to $10,000 more, are only
> 70% efficient (compared to 95% for grid-tie) and are a never
> ending maintenance headache.? Instead, most any enterprising ham
> should be able to provide his own backup power using a cheap 1
> kW inverter for about $150 from any auto store or radio shack
> running off his car's 12V system for any power outages.
>
> That, a few deep cycle batteries, (and using CFL lightbulbs in
> your house) will give you enough emergency power to operate your
> full Ham station, all the lights in the house you want plus your
> refrigerator for as long as you can buy gas.? But the other
> 99.99% of the time, sell your solar power to the power company
> (at peak rates during the day) and buy it back cheap at night
> (you win and you don't even have to worrry about batteries)...
>
> And even if your grid-tie solar array produces nothing (in the
> way of AC power) when the grid goes out, you still have many
> Killowatts of DC power on your roof, that you can surely find
> lots of things to do with until the grid comes back.? For
> example, have the electrician wire a 250 volt string of the 200
> Watt solar panels in the array to a DPDT switch so they can be
> disconnected from the Grid Tie system and the 250 VDC can be
> available to you.? THen you can plug in as many modern DC/DC
> pwer supplies into that 250 VDC to give you LOTS of amps at 12
> volts, or ... almost any modern gizmo has a universal power
> supply input that will run on anything from 110V to 330V DC as
> is.
>
> Anyway, for similar hints www.aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
>
> Sorry for the off-topic.? But? I was wrong. PV works! (even in
> Maryland).? If you live in the SW, you are lucky, and it works
> TWICE as much or at HALF the price!
>
> A Born-again Home PV junkie
> Bob, WB4APR
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 21:46:18 -0400
From: "w3vvp" <w3vvp@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] info wanted
To: "amsat-bb" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <2BB1FB3C12C6449E898B963836C32A77@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Has any one had any experience with the Alinco-DJ-G7?
Have there been any reviews of it? Please reply off line. Thanks.
George,W3VVP
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 19:33:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Jerzycke <kq6ea@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong)
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxxx bruninga@xxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <590272.15950.qm@xxxxxxxx.xxxx.xxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Bob, I *never* consider your posts as "Off Topic"!
As others have replied, it varies greatly state-by-state. I have a very good
friend who installed a grid-tie system at his house. He was $30,000
out-of-pocket, and got some fraction of that back in tax credits. Where he
lives in California (Orange County), the utility DOES NOT buy power back
from him; he only reduces his bill, a significant amount in summer, and less
in the winter. IIRC, he told me his lowest power bill was a few dollars, and
his highest was $45~$50. His bill *was* running $200 and higher before he
bought his system.
Jim KQ6EA
--- On Thu, 10/1/09, Robert Bruninga <bruninga@xxxx.xxx> wrote:
> From: Robert Bruninga <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Solar Power (I was wrong)
> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 5:37 PM
> Since Satellite design is heavy into
> Solar power, and I talk
> about that a lot, you may have heard me compare my Solar
> car to
> Solar panels on the roof of your house as not economical, I
> WAS
> WRONG.? I was overlooking many recent changes in the
> environment:
>
> 1) Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970
> 2) PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and
> 2009
> economic bust
> 4) $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU
> 5) Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to
> 70% of
> battery systems
> 6) Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years
> 7) Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates
> they
> charge you.
> 8) Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per
> 1Kw
> system per year
> 9) Payback is at least 10% per year or better
> 10) The same money in the bank gets 1% interest
>
> So I was wrong in not keeping current with all the
> changing
> environment, and now I am full speed to get my system
> approved
> and built and correct any miss-guidance I may have helped
> propagate.
>
> Sorry. I am claiming this particular email is on-topic
> because
> of public statements to the contrary I have made at
> satellite
> forums.? But this hot topic should probably spin off
> elsewhere.
> We need a HAM Solar Power group somewhere...?
>
> Summary:? Do NOT make the mistake (as most of us do)
> of thinking
> in terms of stand-alone Battery back-up solar power systems
> .
> They cost more and you don't need it in most places where
> you
> have access to the grid.? They cost $5 to $10,000
> more, are only
> 70% efficient (compared to 95% for grid-tie) and are a
> never
> ending maintenance headache.? Instead, most any
> enterprising ham
> should be able to provide his own backup power using a
> cheap 1
> kW inverter for about $150 from any auto store or radio
> shack
> running off his car's 12V system for any power outages.
>
> That, a few deep cycle batteries, (and using CFL lightbulbs
> in
> your house) will give you enough emergency power to operate
> your
> full Ham station, all the lights in the house you want plus
> your
> refrigerator for as long as you can buy gas.? But the
> other
> 99.99% of the time, sell your solar power to the power
> company
> (at peak rates during the day) and buy it back cheap at
> night
> (you win and you don't even have to worrry about
> batteries)...
>
> And even if your grid-tie solar array produces nothing (in
> the
> way of AC power) when the grid goes out, you still have
> many
> Killowatts of DC power on your roof, that you can surely
> find
> lots of things to do with until the grid comes back.?
> For
> example, have the electrician wire a 250 volt string of the
> 200
> Watt solar panels in the array to a DPDT switch so they can
> be
> disconnected from the Grid Tie system and the 250 VDC can
> be
> available to you.? THen you can plug in as many modern
> DC/DC
> pwer supplies into that 250 VDC to give you LOTS of amps at
> 12
> volts, or ... almost any modern gizmo has a universal
> power
> supply input that will run on anything from 110V to 330V DC
> as
> is.
>
> Anyway, for similar hints www.aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
>
> Sorry for the off-topic.? But? I was wrong. PV
> works! (even in
> Maryland).? If you live in the SW, you are lucky, and
> it works
> TWICE as much or at HALF the price!
>
> A Born-again Home PV junkie
> Bob, WB4APR
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx.
> Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
> satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 22:48:00 -0400
From: Peter <roi@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Arrow 11 Antenna performance from the designer
To: AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <006d01ca430a$dc8c5a00$6901a8c0@xxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
Hello,
I've been reading the comments on the Arrow 11 Antenna regarding performance
comparisons with the stock vs. commercial Duplexer's. I decided to find the
designer and ask him, while not the scientific answer I was seeking it does
give us some idea of what he was asked to design.
73,
Pete, WB2OQQ
Pete;
Well, 2.4 db of loss sounds like one that is a little high, but possible
if you include the cables. I did this design over 10 years ago, and I hold
no stake in Arrow or Duplexer production. I used surface mount components
that made it so that it would fit in the handle. The losses form those are
not as good a tuned up commercial duplexer with better Q's for the
inductors. As with any project some one's idea is always better than the
rest. I take it with a grain of salt, this was a fun project I did for
AMSAT and hold no grudges on making it better. If you can come up with a
better design with some of the stuff that is out there, Go For IT!!!
Best Regards
Charles,
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 19:48:31 -0700
From: "Jeff Yanko" <wb3jfs@xxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong)
To: "Pete Rowe" <ptrowe@xxxxx.xxx>, <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>,
<amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <C61AE406B46041F1AA0DE3F203BAB80C@xxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Pete,
FB on friends and their systems. What will happen is since each state has
its own PUC, Public Utility Commission, and laws there will be 50 different
ways of handling how to reimburse, tax or otherwise garnish money from this
process.
I've also been wondering. Since a basic grid-tie system can cost from
$15,000 to $25,000, they only last so long. Twenty years, tops maybe? Do
they really pay for themselves, even wth tax credits, when you have to
replace them in say twenty years?
73,
Jeff WB3JFS
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Rowe
To: bruninga@xxxx.xxx ; amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx ; Jeff Yanko
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong)
I've recently looked into PV home installations in California.
Unfortunately, here at least, the power company is only required to pay you
the WHOLESALE cost of electricity. This amounts to 3 to 4 cents per kw-hr.
Hence, most folks size their PV system to exactly meet their needs. I have
three friends who have had systems running for 3 years. You get credits from
the power company for the power you generated during the year. Then they
even up at the end of the year. If you made more electricity than you used,
you lose it. If you made less, then you owe them the difference. Since they
have sized the systems correctly, they owe very little money.
One of my friends installed a water spray system to cool the panels
since they lose efficiency fast as the temperature goes up. Also, it doesn't
take much dust or bird poop to cut the efficiency. So if you install a
system, be prepared to get on the roof every month or so to clean the panels.
Regards,
Pete
WA6WOA
--- On Thu, 10/1/09, Jeff Yanko <wb3jfs@xxx.xxx> wrote:
From: Jeff Yanko <wb3jfs@xxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Solar Power (I was wrong)
To: bruninga@xxxx.xxxx amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 6:04 PM
Interesting topic. Here in the desert, Las Vegas, NV, I've seen a
few homes
with solar panels on their roofs. Not a lot but a few here and
there.
Actually, I see more with roof heating systems for the pools than
anything
else. However, I'm sure there are more out there than I'm seeing.
In any
case, a topic has risen about generating and selling power back to
the
utility company.....taxes. Some states are now implementing taxes
on
residential owners who generate and "sell back" their power to the
utility
company. Pennsylvania happens to be one of them. I believe the
standing is
if you sell back over 50,000 watts of power you will incur
additional taxes,
adding to your state personal income tax. Apparantly, after
50,000 watts
your considered a "generating" or "generator" entity and are
subject to tax.
Lets say you were able to generate and sell back 100,000 watts to
the
utility company. The first 50,000 watts would be "free". >From
then on out,
it's taxed. Not sure what rate they are or would be applying but
lets say
15 cents per KW. At 50,000 watts that would be $7.50. Doesn't
sound like
much, then again 15 cents per KW is probably nowhere near what
they really
want.
I believe you will see this happen more often as states look for
additional
revenue.
73,
Jeff WB3JFS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:37 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Solar Power (I was wrong)
> Since Satellite design is heavy into Solar power, and I talk
> about that a lot, you may have heard me compare my Solar car to
> Solar panels on the roof of your house as not economical, I WAS
> WRONG. I was overlooking many recent changes in the
> environment:
>
> 1) Solar panels (PV) are 1% of what they cost in 1970
> 2) PV dropped 40% this year due to 2007 Energy Boom and 2009
> economic bust
> 4) $5,000 to $20,000 tax and cash back incentives for YOU
> 5) Grid-tie systems operate at 95% efficiency compared to 70% of
> battery systems
> 6) Local electric rates DOUBLED in the last 2 years
> 7) Laws require utilities to pay you the same peak rates they
> charge you.
> 8) Solar Energy credits can gain an additional $275 per 1Kw
> system per year
> 9) Payback is at least 10% per year or better
> 10) The same money in the bank gets 1% interest
>
> So I was wrong in not keeping current with all the changing
> environment, and now I am full speed to get my system approved
> and built and correct any miss-guidance I may have helped
> propagate.
>
> Sorry. I am claiming this particular email is on-topic because
> of public statements to the contrary I have made at satellite
> forums. But this hot topic should probably spin off elsewhere.
> We need a HAM Solar Power group somewhere...?
>
> Summary: Do NOT make the mistake (as most of us do) of thinking
> in terms of stand-alone Battery back-up solar power systems .
> They cost more and you don't need it in most places where you
> have access to the grid. They cost $5 to $10,000 more, are only
> 70% efficient (compared to 95% for grid-tie) and are a never
> ending maintenance headache. Instead, most any enterprising ham
> should be able to provide his own backup power using a cheap 1
> kW inverter for about $150 from any auto store or radio shack
> running off his car's 12V system for any power outages.
>
> That, a few deep cycle batteries, (and using CFL lightbulbs in
> your house) will give you enough emergency power to operate your
> full Ham station, all the lights in the house you want plus your
> refrigerator for as long as you can buy gas. But the other
> 99.99% of the time, sell your solar power to the power company
> (at peak rates during the day) and buy it back cheap at night
> (you win and you don't even have to worrry about batteries)...
>
> And even if your grid-tie solar array produces nothing (in the
> way of AC power) when the grid goes out, you still have many
> Killowatts of DC power on your roof, that you can surely find
> lots of things to do with until the grid comes back. For
> example, have the electrician wire a 250 volt string of the 200
> Watt solar panels in the array to a DPDT switch so they can be
> disconnected from the Grid Tie system and the 250 VDC can be
> available to you. THen you can plug in as many modern DC/DC
> pwer supplies into that 250 VDC to give you LOTS of amps at 12
> volts, or ... almost any modern gizmo has a universal power
> supply input that will run on anything from 110V to 330V DC as
> is.
>
> Anyway, for similar hints www.aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
>
> Sorry for the off-topic. But I was wrong. PV works! (even in
> Maryland). If you live in the SW, you are lucky, and it works
> TWICE as much or at HALF the price!
>
> A Born-again Home PV junkie
> Bob, WB4APR
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 16:09:48 -0400
From: Charles Suprin <hamaa1vs@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Arrow antenna reconfiguration results - UPDATE
To: Jeff Yanko <wb3jfs@xxx.xxx>
Cc: Joe <nss@xxx.xxx>, AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>, "Gary \"Joe\"
Mayfield" <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID:
<e6d28deb0910011309h4276b150s9044eaf1dddf693e@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Howdy Jeff,
Someone asked and here we go. A file attachment follows.
Actually the diplexer looks pretty good. Less than half a db of loss at VHF
and around half a dB at UHF. I checked the calibration and that was within
tenth of a dB over the entire range.
Any questions.
Charles
AA1VS
On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 6:26 AM, Jeff Yanko <wb3jfs@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> Hi Joe and all,
>
> I doubt if the Arrow diplexer has 20dB of loss. If it did, we'd never
> receive a signal! :)
>
> I believe somebody here on the -bb will be performing a test on the Arrow
> diplexer using a vector/network analyzer. It will be interesting to say
> the
> least. There were preliminary reports saying the device had a loss
> anywhere
> from 2.65 to 2.80dB. That's close enough to 3dB which is technically half
> power loss. Add the loss of a short piece of coax and it will certainly be
> pushed over the 3dB line.
>
> If I recall correctly, cross polarity is also a 3dB loss. I have noticed
> that when I rotate the antenna I might get a stronger downlink but I never
> lose it when I rotate it back. Before, when I would do that it would drop
> once I rotated in either direction from the peak signal. Basically what is
> going on is the lossy device is removed and replaced with a more efficient
> one, that extra net gain you just boosted now shows how the system on the
> antenna side of the diplexer is truly performing.
>
> I don't have an antenna analysis program to perform a test, but what does a
> 7 element 440 yagi pattern look like and what is its overall gain?
>
> What we need to do is break down the antenna configuration into 3 segments,
> see what their losses and gains are then combine them for the overall
> figure. The 3 segment would be the antenna, the diplexer and the coax.
> Each one will be tested individually to give an accurate number for each.
>
>
> 73,
>
>
> Jeff WB3JFS
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe" <nss@xxx.xxx>
> To: "Gary "Joe" Mayfield" <gary_mayfield@xxxxxxx.xxx>
> Cc: "'AMSAT-BB'" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 6:42 PM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Arrow antenna reconfiguration results - UPDATE
>
>
> > as in the texts below, there is something else going on here.
> >
> > That Diplexor can not be all that bad. two reasons.
> >
> > How many db down is the front to side of that antenna?
> >
> > and I can not imaging someone would sell a diplexor that has greater
> > than 20 db of losses.
> >
> > because of the statement that how criticalpolarity was with the
> > original, and now the antenna has to be nearly 90 degrees cross
> > polarized to make it drop out uhh
> >
> > that close to 30 db,
> >
> > at least 20,,
> >
> > something else is going on here
> >
> > Gary "Joe" Mayfield wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>>Another issue I came across was how wide the beamwidth is of the Arrow
> >>>Antenna between the Arrow diplexer and the new diplexer. I was
> wondering
> >>>
> >>>
> >>if
> >>
> >>
> >>>this was going to happen and it did. The reason that this happened was
> >>>
> >>>
> >>with
> >>
> >>
> >>>the old diplexer, the signal attenuated so much that you had to be
> >>>pointed
> >>>right smack dab on the bird, a few degrees off and you lost the signal.
> >>>Now, with the new diplexer, you can point the beam in the general
> >>>
> >>>
> >>direction
> >>
> >>
> >>>and still copy the bird. In most cases I had to turn the beam 90
> degrees
> >>>before I completely lost the downlink! Twisting the antenna to make
> >>>polarization changes makes absolutely no difference now. This also
> >>>attributes to the fact that now I'm copying the entire pass without
> >>>
> >>>
> >>dropouts
> >>
> >>
> >>>or fades. Makes sense. What I've regained over the lossy diplexer
> makes
> >>>
> >>>
> >>up
> >>
> >>
> >>>for any polarization differences, etc. for a better copiable signal.
> >>>
> >>>Next weekend I will have to try more passes and get a feel of how much
> >>>
> >>>
> >>this
> >>
> >>
> >>>system has changed.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>73,
> >>>
> >>>Jeff WB3JFS
> >>>Las Vegas, NV
> >>>DM26
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
> author.
> >>>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>>program!
> >>>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> >>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> >>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> >>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> >>Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>Version: 8.5.416 / Virus Database: 270.13.113/2395 - Release Date:
> >>09/25/09 17:52:00
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 509
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