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CX2SA > SATDIG 13.09.09 16:02l 2361 Lines 80605 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: AMSAT-BB-digest V4 465
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To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Volunteered (Ben Jackson)
2. Re: Volunteered (Timothy J. Salo)
3. Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464 (Louis McFadin)
4. Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464 (Bill Ress)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:22:49 -0400
From: Ben Jackson <bbj@xxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
To: Rocky Jones <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Cc: rswart1@xxxxx.xx.xxxx amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxx BB
<amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <4AAC6589.6090306@xxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Rocky Jones wrote:
>
> Bob. I am told by people at JSC that this is not an accurate statement.
Well then, please present who these people are and what they said.
--
Ben Jackson - N1WBV - New Bedford, MA
bbj <at> innismir.net - http://www.innismir.net/
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:30:48 -0500
From: "Timothy J. Salo" <salo@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
To: Amsat BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Message-ID: <4AAC7578.7020901@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> ... missed a deadline. That is a foundation of project
> management no matter if it is paid or unpaid. ... it means
> someone (or group) is not capable of good project management.
I think this focus on project management is probably both
unfair and misdirected.
First, it is unfair because very, very few organizations are
really good at project management. A few organizations are
really good at project management because they invest
considerable resources in developing a strong project management
organization, including people, data, processes, and culture.
It is highly unreasonable to expect AMSAT to even be able to
make this sort of investment, much less actually do it. A few
organizations are good at project management because they do
the same thing over and over with a stable, experienced crew.
After you have built ten bridges, you have a pretty good
idea how long it will take your crew to build the eleventh.
AMSAT simply doesn't build enough satellites or, I believe,
have enough depth in its development organization, to be able
to either accurately estimate the resources required to build a
satellite, or to reliably execute according to a realistic plan.
And, a lot of organizations, in essence, cheat. They overestimate
in hopes that hitting their schedule, Or, they throw more
resources at the project that is behind in order to meet the
schedule. Or, they reduce the scope of the project. Or, if
they are government contractors, they keep negotiating
changes-in-scope to their contract in order to pay for any cost
overruns.
The truth is, development projects, by their very nature, are
risky (in the sense that success is uncertain). In fact,
most development projects fail -- but, we just don't hear
about them.
I also believe that this focus on project management is
misdirected. In my view, the focus should be on
_development_ management, not project management. While the
scope and authority of the project management function
varies across organizations, in general, its job is to
support the development management. And, I believe that
AMSAT does need to substantially improve its management
of development projects. But, that is obviously difficult,
in part because successfully managing development projects
requires skills that are often in shorter supply than those
required to actually build a satellite. But, that is another
long, topic...
By the way, someone else wrote:
> ... There is no such thing as "good project mamagement" in an
> all volunteer effort where all the critical work gets done by
> techincally skilled and motivated volunteers.
I don't believe that this is at all true. I do believe,
however, that managing a volunteer development team is
much more challenging.
And,
> ... The last thing we need is a bunch of clueless managers ...
Again, _good_ development management is rare. But, good
development management significantly increases the chances
of success. Of course, one the skills of a good development
manager is managing technical people who consider all managers
to be clueless.
-tjs
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 00:42:02 -0400
From: Louis McFadin <w5did@xxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <5B878787-9BA2-493B-B620-8FD668B7DA93@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
It pains me to have to spend any energy answering all these comments
about the Suitsat-2 and AMSAT problems.
Here are the facts:
No flights were missed. The Russians and the ARISS team have been
working very hard to put together Suitsat-2 in a timely manner so that
we could catch a ride to ISS on a Progress mission. The Russians
declared the suit excess quite a while ago. The ISS is getting more
and more crowded since it is now crewed by six people.
There is a real problem with clearance around all the equipment on
ISS. It's to the point of becoming a safety hazard. Each side has a
finite amount of volume allocated.
The suits were seen as a safety hazard because of this crowdedness.
There wasn't a case of no one being notified. We all knew there was a
space problem.
It simply came down to a priority situation. Do you throw away
something that you need to keep and have spent an enormous amount of
money getting to ISS, or something that is very low on the priority?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where Suitsat fell on
that list.
In actuality this may have been a very good thing. We were having a
very difficult time trying to figure out how to properly attach the
solar panels to the suit so that they could properly power the
electronics. Now we will take the solar panels and form a satellite
enclosure around the electronics planned for Suitsat 2 and call it
ARISSat-1.
We have been working very hard on designing this new configuration and
are making excellent progress due to some very hard working volunteers
both here in the U.S. and in Russia. I am sure the amount of work that
is going on will never be realized by most on this BB but it is
tremendous. What you hear about is only the tip of the iceberg. Not
because its a secret but because most of us don't take the time to
toot our horn. We should but thats the facts.
The team has not had time to listen to this series of comments on the
BB because we are all dedicated to getting the project done in as fast
and reliable a way as we can.
I can tell you this is a very dedicated team and all are working hard
and doing their best to finish their tasks while keeping their jobs
and sanity. If you want names and more information come to the AMSAT
symposium and meet some of them.
The Russians send up Progress resupply missions to ISS regularly so
there will be other chances to send up the new ARISSat-1 satellite.
There are at least four Russian EVAs planned for next year so there
will be other chances to deploy ARISSat-1 so not to fret. The most
important thing is to take the proper time to make sure it is done
right so it will work properly and safely.
So those of you who have actual questions about the facts can send me
or Gould Smith a private e-mail and I will try to answer you with
facts. If you want to complain and not help, please don't send them to
me or the team. We are too busy trying our best to make it happen just
like we have been doing for many years on AMSAT, SAREX and ARISS
projects.
If you really do want to help, send me or any of the BOD a resume and
tell us how you can help.
So I suggest you use this BB for it's intended purpose as being a way
to exchange information about satellite operations. Don't use it as a
way to pump your ego or to trash others.
Let's don't loose sight of the true objectives here. Let's have fun
and leave a legacy for those coming after us that we will all be proud
of. My grandson just got his Ham license that makes me very proud!
Lou McFadin
W5DID
AMSAT BOD
ARISS US Hardware manager
On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:10 PM, amsat-bb-request@xxxxx.xxx wrote:
> Send AMSAT-BB mailing list submissions to
> amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> amsat-bb-request@xxxxx.xxx
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> amsat-bb-owner@xxxxx.xxx
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of AMSAT-BB digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Volunteered (Mark Lunday)
> 2. FN51 operations (Dave Webb KB1PVH)
> 3. AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 (Mark L. Hammond)
> 4. Re: (Reporting web pages needing updates) (John P. Toscano)
> 5. Re: AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 (Andrew Rich)
> 6. Re: Volunteered (Bill Ress)
> 7. Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
> 8. Re: Volunteered (rwmcgwier@xxxxx.xxxx
> 9. Re: Volunteered (Dale Hershberger)
> 10. Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
> 11. Re: Volunteered (Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF)
> 12. Re: Volunteered (Kevin Smith)
> 13. Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
> 14. Re: Volunteered (Andrew Rich)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:50:30 -0400
> From: "Mark Lunday" <mlunday@xx.xx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
> To: "'Rocky Jones'" <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>, <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>,
> <bill@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Cc: rswart1@xxxxx.xx.xxxx 'Amsat BB' <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Message-ID: <002f01ca33ea$aa7245e0$ff56d1a0$@xx.xxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling
> frustrated
> here.
>
> The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they
> were paid
> staff. It's about expectations as well.
>
> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off.
> What
> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some,
> anyway) have
> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by
> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that
> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can
> provide
> that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that
> standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.
>
> Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR
> ABOVE
> what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE
> MIND. I
> have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites for
> about
> as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning across
> geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about
> satellites in
> general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate
> response in
> a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual capital
> and
> horsepower is deep and very valuable.
>
> And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding
> performance on so
> many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond in
> all
> cases. That's not always realistic.
>
> I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past few
> days,
> and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid
> position
> or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in the
> near
> future (additional funding support)
>
> Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction
> would help
> clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status
> reporting on
> progress for specific projects would help the community understand:
> (1) the progress
> (2) the risks
> (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers
> (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems
> (leveraging
> some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our
> community).
>
>
> Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer,
> and a 35
> year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a
> volunteer for
> helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects
>
> Mark Lunday
> WD4ELG
> Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb
> wd4elg@xxxx.xxx
> http://wd4elg.net
> http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:18:07 +0000
> From: "Dave Webb KB1PVH" <kb1pvh@xxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] FN51 operations
> To: "AMSAT BB" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Message-ID:
> <1853931992-1252790287-
> cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-401973086-
> @xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxx.xx.xxxxxxxxxx>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Hello all,
>
> I have arrived at FN51 on Cape Cod. Unfortunately, it is raining,
> thundering, and a bit of lightning. I think it is best to hold off
> for a bit from waving my lightning rod at the sky.
> If things clear up a bit, I will give it a shot. The weather is
> supposed to be better tomorrow.
>
> 73,
>
> Dave KB1PVH
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:27:15 -0400
> From: "Mark L. Hammond" <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009
> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> Message-ID: <4aac1231.47c1f10a.6666.fffff60e@xx.xxxxxx.xxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Reloading of the satellite continues.
>
> From the front page of the AMSAT web page:
>
> AO-51 is off the air while the software reload is in progress. We
> hope to have it operational by the first of the week.
>
> AO-51 Command team
>
>
> 73,
>
>
>
> Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:46:06 -0500
> From: "John P. Toscano" <tosca005@xx.xxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: (Reporting web pages needing updates)
> Cc: "'Amsat BB'" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Message-ID: <4AAC169E.7020908@xx.xxx.xxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Andrew Rich (Home) wrote:
>> No I meant
>>
>> amsatwebchanges@xxxxx.xxx
>>
>> " I found this page is old and needs to be deleted"
>>
>> Many hands make light work
>
> Andrew: I think that the following solution will help you accomplish
> your goal...
>
> At the bottom of many pages of the AMSAT web site is a link entitled:
> "Report a bug on this page"
>
> Click on the link, and a form pops up. The form is pre-filled with the
> URL of the "offending" web page, i.e. the web page you were on at the
> time you clicked on the link. Fill in the rest of the form and click
> on
> the button labeled:
> Submit Report
>
> One of the questions on the form is "Issue Type", and the drop-down
> list
> include numerous choices, such as:
> -- malformed text
> -- broken link
> -- outdated information
> -- misspelling
> -- punctuation
> and several others. You don't even have to start up your email client;
> the form goes to the appropriate person when you click on the Submit
> button.
>
> If the page with a problem does not have one of these links on it, you
> could manually type in the following URL into your browser:
> http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/bugform.php
>
> The only problem with this is you will have to manually fill in the
> line
> on the form that specifies what web page is problematic. Of course,
> before you change to this URL, use your mouse to highlight the current
> URL (where the problem is located), hit Ctrl+C to copy the URL to the
> Windows Clipboard, then go to the bugform page, mouse or tab to that
> field, and hit Ctrl+V to paste in the URL. [My apologies in advance
> for
> giving you Windows-centric instructions if you are using a different
> OS
> family.]
>
> This seems even easier to me than an email alias to which you send
> problem reports, but maybe that's just me...
>
> But I clearly agree, a thousand pairs of eyes can find more errors and
> omissions than a single pair of eyes. www.nlrs.org (which I maintain)
> is comprised of over 4000 files, so I assume that www.amsat.org is
> much
> bigger!
>
> 73 de W0JT
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 07:51:59 +1000
> From: "Andrew Rich" <vk4tec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009
> To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>, "Mark L. Hammond" <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx>
> Message-ID: <1E3E3D647EFE4E4E899F5249C789AC3B@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Vista probs huh
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Andrew Rich
> Airways Technical Officer Grade 4
> Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B
> Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC
> email: vk4tec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
> web: www.tech-software.net
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark L. Hammond" <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx>
> To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:27 AM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009
>
>
>> Reloading of the satellite continues.
>>
>> From the front page of the AMSAT web page:
>>
>> AO-51 is off the air while the software reload is in progress. We
>> hope to
>> have it operational by the first of the week.
>>
>> AO-51 Command team
>>
>>
>> 73,
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
>> author.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.92/2364 - Release Date:
> 09/11/09
> 17:51:00
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:06:49 -0700
> From: Bill Ress <bill@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
> To: Mark Lunday <mlunday@xx.xx.xxx>
> Cc: rswart1@xxxxx.xx.xxxx 'Amsat BB' <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Message-ID: <4AAC1B79.4070806@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> Thanks for your comments and your offer to volunteer.
>
> Why don't you contact me off line and we can talk about your specific
> interests.
>
> Regards...Bill - N6GHz
>
> Mark Lunday wrote:
>> Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling
>> frustrated
>> here.
>>
>> The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they
>> were paid
>> staff. It's about expectations as well.
>>
>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts
>> off. What
>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some,
>> anyway) have
>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by
>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that
>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can
>> provide
>> that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that
>> standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.
>>
>> Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR
>> ABOVE
>> what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE
>> MIND. I
>> have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites
>> for about
>> as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning
>> across
>> geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about
>> satellites in
>> general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate
>> response in
>> a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual
>> capital and
>> horsepower is deep and very valuable.
>>
>> And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding
>> performance on so
>> many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond
>> in all
>> cases. That's not always realistic.
>>
>> I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past
>> few days,
>> and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid
>> position
>> or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in
>> the near
>> future (additional funding support)
>>
>> Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction
>> would help
>> clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status
>> reporting on
>> progress for specific projects would help the community understand:
>> (1) the progress
>> (2) the risks
>> (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers
>> (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems
>> (leveraging
>> some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our
>> community).
>>
>>
>> Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer,
>> and a 35
>> year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a
>> volunteer for
>> helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects
>>
>> Mark Lunday
>> WD4ELG
>> Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb
>> wd4elg@xxxx.xxx
>> http://wd4elg.net
>> http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47 -0500
> From: Rocky Jones <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
> To: <mlunday@xx.xx.xxx>, <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>, <bill@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Cc: rswart1@xxxxx.xx.xxxx Amsat BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Message-ID: <COL106-W241B6E30399C6831599B8AD6E60@xxx.xxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts
>> off. What
>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some,
>> anyway) have
>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by
>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that
>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
>
> Mark.
>
> "level of performance".
>
> No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to
> equal the work through put of a paid employee...
>
> For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can
> get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is
> expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
>
> But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the
> tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into
> the pulpit in the first place.
>
> It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who
> professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is
> on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to
> meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
>
> No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
>
> Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links
> and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit
> more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other
> reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are
> well understood.
>
> Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so
> complicated that they missed their free launch.
>
> I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad
> management.
>
> That reality seems to bite some folks
>
> Robert WB5MZO
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:05:07 +0000
> From: rwmcgwier@xxxxx.xxx
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
> To: "Rocky Jones" <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>, amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx
> mlunday@xx.xx.xxxx bruninga@xxxx.xxxx "Bill Ress"
> <bill@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Cc: rswart1@xxxxx.xx.xxxx amsat bb <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Message-ID:
> <1167601682-1252796952-
> cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1812505125-
> @xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxx.xx.xxxxxxxxxx>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> This is unadulterated bull shit made from whole cloth.
>
> We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians, as
> is their right when they have command, decided with all the
> equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without
> notice to us (and they owed us nothing).
>
> I would be the very last person to say AMSAT is above all criticism
> but you are clearly nor the spokesperson needed for the critics.
> Your notes are those of a person who wants to fiddle while he burns
> Rome. What is needed in my not so humble opinion is a spokesperson
> for the critics who is not perceived as full of animus.
>
> Bob
> N4HY LM
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rocky Jones <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47
> To: <mlunday@xx.xx.xxx>; <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>; <bill@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Cc: <rswart1@xxxxx.xx.xxx>; Amsat BB<amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts
>> off. What
>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some,
>> anyway) have
>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by
>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that
>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
>
> Mark.
>
> "level of performance".
>
> No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to
> equal the work through put of a paid employee...
>
> For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can
> get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is
> expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
>
> But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the
> tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into
> the pulpit in the first place.
>
> It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who
> professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is
> on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to
> meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
>
> No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
>
> Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links
> and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit
> more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other
> reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are
> well understood.
>
> Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so
> complicated that they missed their free launch.
>
> I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad
> management.
>
> That reality seems to bite some folks
>
> Robert WB5MZO
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
> author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:21:43 -0700
> From: Dale Hershberger <daleh@xxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
> To: Rocky Jones <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>, amsat bbs <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Cc: amsat bbs <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Message-ID: <4AAC1EF7.7070307@xxxxxx.xxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Rocky Jones wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts
>>> off. What
>>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some,
>>> anyway) have
>>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided
>>> by
>>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that
>>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
>>>
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>> "level of performance".
>>
>> No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to
>> equal the work through put of a paid employee...
>>
>> For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can
>> get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is
>> expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
>>
>> But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the
>> tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into
>> the pulpit in the first place.
>>
>> It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who
>> professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is
>> on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to
>> meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
>>
>> No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
>>
>> Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak
>> links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a
>> bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no
>> other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure
>> are well understood.
>>
>> Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so
>> complicated that they missed their free launch.
>>
>> I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is
>> bad management.
>>
>> That reality seems to bite some folks
>>
>> Robert WB5MZO
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
>> author.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>>
> I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in light
> of
> the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member of
> AMSAT and
> proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read
> Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look
> for
> the weak points and focus
> on the corrections that can be made.
>
> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or
> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
> Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
>
> If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal
> directly with them.
> The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then
> degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of
> AMSAT.
> We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good
> information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed
> to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where
> it
> turns others off.
>
> I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
>
> Dale - KL7XJ
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 20:17:45 -0500
> From: Rocky Jones <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
> To: <daleh@xxxxxx.xxx>, Amsat BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Message-ID: <COL106-W58B6A2252EABA4D1398E82D6E50@xxx.xxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or
> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
>
> Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
>
>
>
> If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal
> directly with them.
>
> The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then
> degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of
> AMSAT.
>
> We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good
> information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed
>
> to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where
> it
> turns others off.
>
>
>
> I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
>
>
>
> Dale - KL7XJ
>
> Dale. Pointing out errors in performance that are consistent is not
> bashing...and it doesnt matter if they are volunteers or paid staff.
>
> If they cannot deal with responsible criticism, and oddly enough no
> one has refuted the statement I made that 1) they missed a launch
> date and 2) in large measure because they bit off to large a
> project...
>
> instead all one gets is "wow I am upset because you are pointing out
> flaws in my performance, I am a volunteer I work 16-18 hours a day
> and wow this is space".
>
> No one is calling them stupid, indeed the only people who have blown
> their corks are those who dont have answers to reasonable questions.
>
> Robert WB5MZO
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 02:12:41 +0000
> From: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF <nigel@xxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
> To: Amsat BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Message-ID: <4AAC5519.0@xxxxx.xxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/
> administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless
> bitching.
>
> Rocky Jones wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or
>> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:15:17 -0400
> From: Kevin Smith <kevin.j.smith@xxxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
> To: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF <nigel@xxxxx.xxx>
> Cc: Amsat BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Message-ID: <69F07AEC-DA3D-43E9-B5C9-49DE5AFB8C6D@xxxxxxx.xxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Failing that can we at least stop feeding this troll.
>
> Kevin Smith
> N3HKQ
>
> On Sep 12, 2009, at 10:12 PM, Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF <nigel@xxxxx.xxx>
> wrote:
>
>> It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/
>> administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless
>> bitching.
>>
>> Rocky Jones wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or
>>> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
>> author.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:41:32 -0500
> From: Rocky Jones <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
> To: <rwmcgwier@xxxxx.xxx>, <amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx>,
> <mlunday@xx.xx.xxx>, <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>, <bill@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Cc: rswart1@xxxxx.xx.xxxx Amsat BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Message-ID: <COL106-W355AA9617CBDC9609F8036D6E50@xxx.xxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
>
>>
>> We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians,
>> as is their right when they have command, decided with all the
>> equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without
>> notice to us (and they owed us nothing).
>>
>
> Bob. I am told by people at JSC that this is not an accurate
> statement.
>
> Robert WB5MZO
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Bing brings you health info from trusted sources.
>
http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHE
INA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:19:04 +1000
> From: "Andrew Rich" <vk4tec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
> To: "Dale Hershberger" <daleh@xxxxxx.xxx>, "Rocky Jones"
> <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>, "amsat bbs" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Cc: amsat bbs <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Message-ID: <670D13D572204184BDA77DF2B146F0A0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> http://php.opensourcecms.com/scripts/show.php?catid=all&cat=All%20Scripts
>
> CMS - kewl
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Andrew Rich
> Airways Technical Officer Grade 4
> Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B
> Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC
> email: vk4tec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
> web: www.tech-software.net
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dale Hershberger" <daleh@xxxxxx.xxx>
> To: "Rocky Jones" <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>; "amsat bbs" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> >
> Cc: "amsat bbs" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:21 AM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>
>
>> Rocky Jones wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off.
>>>> What
>>>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some,
>>>> anyway)
>>>> have
>>>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be
>>>> provided by
>>>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that
>>>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Mark.
>>>
>>> "level of performance".
>>>
>>> No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to
>>> equal
>>> the work through put of a paid employee...
>>>
>>> For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool
>>> can get
>>> into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is
>>> expected
>>> to have three sermons a week ready to go...
>>>
>>> But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in
>>> the tools
>>> being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the
>>> pulpit
>>> in the first place.
>>>
>>> It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who
>>> professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is
>>> on...but
>>> for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a
>>> minimium
>>> level of competency and demonstrate that.
>>>
>>> No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
>>>
>>> Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak
>>> links and
>>> then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more
>>> "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other
>>> reason to
>>> make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well
>>> understood.
>>>
>>> Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so
>>> complicated that they missed their free launch.
>>>
>>> I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad
>>> management.
>>>
>>> That reality seems to bite some folks
>>>
>>> Robert WB5MZO
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
>>> author.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>
>>>
>> I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in
>> light of
>> the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member
>> of
>> AMSAT and
>> proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read
>> Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look
>> for
>> the weak points and focus
>> on the corrections that can be made.
>>
>> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or
>> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
>> Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
>>
>> If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal
>> directly with them.
>> The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then
>> degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of
>> AMSAT.
>> We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good
>> information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed
>> to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point
>> where it
>> turns others off.
>>
>> I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
>>
>> Dale - KL7XJ
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
>> author.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.94/2366 - Release Date:
> 09/12/09
> 17:50:00
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
> author.
> Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
> End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464
> ****************************************
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:18:55 -0700
From: Bill Ress <bill@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464
To: Louis McFadin <w5did@xxx.xxx>
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Message-ID: <4AAC8ECF.60807@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Lou,
Thanks for taking your time to present the facts. While this takes you
away from the important work at hand, it needed to be said.
Regards...Bill - N6GHz
ARRISat Team Member
Louis McFadin wrote:
> It pains me to have to spend any energy answering all these comments
> about the Suitsat-2 and AMSAT problems.
> Here are the facts:
> No flights were missed. The Russians and the ARISS team have been
> working very hard to put together Suitsat-2 in a timely manner so that
> we could catch a ride to ISS on a Progress mission. The Russians
> declared the suit excess quite a while ago. The ISS is getting more
> and more crowded since it is now crewed by six people.
> There is a real problem with clearance around all the equipment on
> ISS. It's to the point of becoming a safety hazard. Each side has a
> finite amount of volume allocated.
> The suits were seen as a safety hazard because of this crowdedness.
> There wasn't a case of no one being notified. We all knew there was a
> space problem.
> It simply came down to a priority situation. Do you throw away
> something that you need to keep and have spent an enormous amount of
> money getting to ISS, or something that is very low on the priority?
> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where Suitsat fell on
> that list.
> In actuality this may have been a very good thing. We were having a
> very difficult time trying to figure out how to properly attach the
> solar panels to the suit so that they could properly power the
> electronics. Now we will take the solar panels and form a satellite
> enclosure around the electronics planned for Suitsat 2 and call it
> ARISSat-1.
>
> We have been working very hard on designing this new configuration and
> are making excellent progress due to some very hard working volunteers
> both here in the U.S. and in Russia. I am sure the amount of work that
> is going on will never be realized by most on this BB but it is
> tremendous. What you hear about is only the tip of the iceberg. Not
> because its a secret but because most of us don't take the time to
> toot our horn. We should but thats the facts.
>
> The team has not had time to listen to this series of comments on the
> BB because we are all dedicated to getting the project done in as fast
> and reliable a way as we can.
> I can tell you this is a very dedicated team and all are working hard
> and doing their best to finish their tasks while keeping their jobs
> and sanity. If you want names and more information come to the AMSAT
> symposium and meet some of them.
>
> The Russians send up Progress resupply missions to ISS regularly so
> there will be other chances to send up the new ARISSat-1 satellite.
> There are at least four Russian EVAs planned for next year so there
> will be other chances to deploy ARISSat-1 so not to fret. The most
> important thing is to take the proper time to make sure it is done
> right so it will work properly and safely.
>
> So those of you who have actual questions about the facts can send me
> or Gould Smith a private e-mail and I will try to answer you with
> facts. If you want to complain and not help, please don't send them to
> me or the team. We are too busy trying our best to make it happen just
> like we have been doing for many years on AMSAT, SAREX and ARISS
> projects.
> If you really do want to help, send me or any of the BOD a resume and
> tell us how you can help.
>
> So I suggest you use this BB for it's intended purpose as being a way
> to exchange information about satellite operations. Don't use it as a
> way to pump your ego or to trash others.
>
> Let's don't loose sight of the true objectives here. Let's have fun
> and leave a legacy for those coming after us that we will all be proud
> of. My grandson just got his Ham license that makes me very proud!
>
>
>
> Lou McFadin
> W5DID
> AMSAT BOD
> ARISS US Hardware manager
>
>
> On Sep 12, 2009, at 11:10 PM, amsat-bb-request@xxxxx.xxx wrote:
>
>> Send AMSAT-BB mailing list submissions to
>> amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> amsat-bb-request@xxxxx.xxx
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> amsat-bb-owner@xxxxx.xxx
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of AMSAT-BB digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Volunteered (Mark Lunday)
>> 2. FN51 operations (Dave Webb KB1PVH)
>> 3. AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 (Mark L. Hammond)
>> 4. Re: (Reporting web pages needing updates) (John P. Toscano)
>> 5. Re: AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009 (Andrew Rich)
>> 6. Re: Volunteered (Bill Ress)
>> 7. Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
>> 8. Re: Volunteered (rwmcgwier@xxxxx.xxxx
>> 9. Re: Volunteered (Dale Hershberger)
>> 10. Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
>> 11. Re: Volunteered (Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF)
>> 12. Re: Volunteered (Kevin Smith)
>> 13. Re: Volunteered (Rocky Jones)
>> 14. Re: Volunteered (Andrew Rich)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:50:30 -0400
>> From: "Mark Lunday" <mlunday@xx.xx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>> To: "'Rocky Jones'" <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>, <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>,
>> <bill@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Cc: rswart1@xxxxx.xx.xxxx 'Amsat BB' <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Message-ID: <002f01ca33ea$aa7245e0$ff56d1a0$@xx.xxx>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling
>> frustrated
>> here.
>>
>> The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they
>> were paid
>> staff. It's about expectations as well.
>>
>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off.
>> What
>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some,
>> anyway) have
>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by
>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that
>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can
>> provide
>> that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that
>> standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.
>>
>> Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR
>> ABOVE
>> what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE
>> MIND. I
>> have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites for
>> about
>> as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning across
>> geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about
>> satellites in
>> general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate
>> response in
>> a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual capital
>> and
>> horsepower is deep and very valuable.
>>
>> And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding
>> performance on so
>> many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond in
>> all
>> cases. That's not always realistic.
>>
>> I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past few
>> days,
>> and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid
>> position
>> or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in the
>> near
>> future (additional funding support)
>>
>> Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction
>> would help
>> clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status
>> reporting on
>> progress for specific projects would help the community understand:
>> (1) the progress
>> (2) the risks
>> (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers
>> (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems
>> (leveraging
>> some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our
>> community).
>>
>>
>> Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer,
>> and a 35
>> year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a
>> volunteer for
>> helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects
>>
>> Mark Lunday
>> WD4ELG
>> Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb
>> wd4elg@xxxx.xxx
>> http://wd4elg.net
>> http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:18:07 +0000
>> From: "Dave Webb KB1PVH" <kb1pvh@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] FN51 operations
>> To: "AMSAT BB" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Message-ID:
>> <1853931992-1252790287-
>> cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-401973086-
>> @xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxx.xx.xxxxxxxxxx>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I have arrived at FN51 on Cape Cod. Unfortunately, it is raining,
>> thundering, and a bit of lightning. I think it is best to hold off
>> for a bit from waving my lightning rod at the sky.
>> If things clear up a bit, I will give it a shot. The weather is
>> supposed to be better tomorrow.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Dave KB1PVH
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:27:15 -0400
>> From: "Mark L. Hammond" <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009
>> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
>> Message-ID: <4aac1231.47c1f10a.6666.fffff60e@xx.xxxxxx.xxx>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Reloading of the satellite continues.
>>
>> From the front page of the AMSAT web page:
>>
>> AO-51 is off the air while the software reload is in progress. We
>> hope to have it operational by the first of the week.
>>
>> AO-51 Command team
>>
>>
>> 73,
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 16:46:06 -0500
>> From: "John P. Toscano" <tosca005@xx.xxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: (Reporting web pages needing updates)
>> Cc: "'Amsat BB'" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Message-ID: <4AAC169E.7020908@xx.xxx.xxx>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Andrew Rich (Home) wrote:
>>> No I meant
>>>
>>> amsatwebchanges@xxxxx.xxx
>>>
>>> " I found this page is old and needs to be deleted"
>>>
>>> Many hands make light work
>> Andrew: I think that the following solution will help you accomplish
>> your goal...
>>
>> At the bottom of many pages of the AMSAT web site is a link entitled:
>> "Report a bug on this page"
>>
>> Click on the link, and a form pops up. The form is pre-filled with the
>> URL of the "offending" web page, i.e. the web page you were on at the
>> time you clicked on the link. Fill in the rest of the form and click
>> on
>> the button labeled:
>> Submit Report
>>
>> One of the questions on the form is "Issue Type", and the drop-down
>> list
>> include numerous choices, such as:
>> -- malformed text
>> -- broken link
>> -- outdated information
>> -- misspelling
>> -- punctuation
>> and several others. You don't even have to start up your email client;
>> the form goes to the appropriate person when you click on the Submit
>> button.
>>
>> If the page with a problem does not have one of these links on it, you
>> could manually type in the following URL into your browser:
>> http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/bugform.php
>>
>> The only problem with this is you will have to manually fill in the
>> line
>> on the form that specifies what web page is problematic. Of course,
>> before you change to this URL, use your mouse to highlight the current
>> URL (where the problem is located), hit Ctrl+C to copy the URL to the
>> Windows Clipboard, then go to the bugform page, mouse or tab to that
>> field, and hit Ctrl+V to paste in the URL. [My apologies in advance
>> for
>> giving you Windows-centric instructions if you are using a different
>> OS
>> family.]
>>
>> This seems even easier to me than an email alias to which you send
>> problem reports, but maybe that's just me...
>>
>> But I clearly agree, a thousand pairs of eyes can find more errors and
>> omissions than a single pair of eyes. www.nlrs.org (which I maintain)
>> is comprised of over 4000 files, so I assume that www.amsat.org is
>> much
>> bigger!
>>
>> 73 de W0JT
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 07:51:59 +1000
>> From: "Andrew Rich" <vk4tec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009
>> To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>, "Mark L. Hammond" <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Message-ID: <1E3E3D647EFE4E4E899F5249C789AC3B@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Vista probs huh
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Andrew Rich
>> Airways Technical Officer Grade 4
>> Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B
>> Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC
>> email: vk4tec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> web: www.tech-software.net
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mark L. Hammond" <marklhammond@xxxxx.xxx>
>> To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:27 AM
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-51 update 12 Sept 2009
>>
>>
>>> Reloading of the satellite continues.
>>>
>>> From the front page of the AMSAT web page:
>>>
>>> AO-51 is off the air while the software reload is in progress. We
>>> hope to
>>> have it operational by the first of the week.
>>>
>>> AO-51 Command team
>>>
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark L. Hammond [N8MH]
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
>>> author.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.92/2364 - Release Date:
>> 09/11/09
>> 17:51:00
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:06:49 -0700
>> From: Bill Ress <bill@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>> To: Mark Lunday <mlunday@xx.xx.xxx>
>> Cc: rswart1@xxxxx.xx.xxxx 'Amsat BB' <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Message-ID: <4AAC1B79.4070806@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> Thanks for your comments and your offer to volunteer.
>>
>> Why don't you contact me off line and we can talk about your specific
>> interests.
>>
>> Regards...Bill - N6GHz
>>
>> Mark Lunday wrote:
>>> Chiming in, after watching this go back and forth and feeling
>>> frustrated
>>> here.
>>>
>>> The issue here is about holding volunteers accountable as if they
>>> were paid
>>> staff. It's about expectations as well.
>>>
>>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts
>>> off. What
>>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some,
>>> anyway) have
>>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by
>>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that
>>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO). None of the volunteers can
>>> provide
>>> that kind of support day-in and day-out. Holding volunteers to that
>>> standard is, in my opinion, a mistake.
>>>
>>> Having said that, what AMSAT volunteers have accomplished is SO FAR
>>> ABOVE
>>> what a normal volunteer organization achieves, that it BOGGLES THE
>>> MIND. I
>>> have been an AMSAT member for 18 months and active on satellites
>>> for about
>>> as long. To see what has been achieved by volunteers, spanning
>>> across
>>> geography, is AMAZING. The ability to ask ANY question about
>>> satellites in
>>> general and AMSAT in particular on this BB, and get an accurate
>>> response in
>>> a timely fashion is impressive. The collective intellectual
>>> capital and
>>> horsepower is deep and very valuable.
>>>
>>> And THAT'S the issue! We're so accustomed to outstanding
>>> performance on so
>>> many things with AMSAT that we start *expecting* above and beyond
>>> in all
>>> cases. That's not always realistic.
>>>
>>> I had a few 1:1 threads with some folks about this over the past
>>> few days,
>>> and I think we could address some of the problems if we had a paid
>>> position
>>> or two. I understand that this is being presented to the ARRL in
>>> the near
>>> future (additional funding support)
>>>
>>> Another side note: it sounds like more communication/interaction
>>> would help
>>> clarify some of these questions and concerns. Regular status
>>> reporting on
>>> progress for specific projects would help the community understand:
>>> (1) the progress
>>> (2) the risks
>>> (3) the level of effort provided by the volunteers
>>> (4) opportunities for additional input for addressing problems
>>> (leveraging
>>> some of that powerful intellectual capital and horsepower in our
>>> community).
>>>
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, as a project manager w/ PMP cert, Electrical Engineer,
>>> and a 35
>>> year ham with military background, I am raising my hand as a
>>> volunteer for
>>> helping with the planning of future AMSAT projects
>>>
>>> Mark Lunday
>>> WD4ELG
>>> Hillsborough, NC - FM06kb
>>> wd4elg@xxxx.xxx
>>> http://wd4elg.net
>>> http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47 -0500
>> From: Rocky Jones <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>> To: <mlunday@xx.xx.xxx>, <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>, <bill@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Cc: rswart1@xxxxx.xx.xxxx Amsat BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Message-ID: <COL106-W241B6E30399C6831599B8AD6E60@xxx.xxx>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts
>>> off. What
>>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some,
>>> anyway) have
>>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by
>>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that
>>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
>> Mark.
>>
>> "level of performance".
>>
>> No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to
>> equal the work through put of a paid employee...
>>
>> For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can
>> get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is
>> expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
>>
>> But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the
>> tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into
>> the pulpit in the first place.
>>
>> It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who
>> professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is
>> on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to
>> meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
>>
>> No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
>>
>> Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links
>> and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit
>> more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other
>> reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are
>> well understood.
>>
>> Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so
>> complicated that they missed their free launch.
>>
>> I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad
>> management.
>>
>> That reality seems to bite some folks
>>
>> Robert WB5MZO
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:05:07 +0000
>> From: rwmcgwier@xxxxx.xxx
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>> To: "Rocky Jones" <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>, amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx
>> mlunday@xx.xx.xxxx bruninga@xxxx.xxxx "Bill Ress"
>> <bill@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Cc: rswart1@xxxxx.xx.xxxx amsat bb <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Message-ID:
>> <1167601682-1252796952-
>> cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1812505125-
>> @xxxxxx.xxxx.xxxx.xx.xxxxxxxxxx>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain
>>
>> This is unadulterated bull shit made from whole cloth.
>>
>> We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians, as
>> is their right when they have command, decided with all the
>> equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without
>> notice to us (and they owed us nothing).
>>
>> I would be the very last person to say AMSAT is above all criticism
>> but you are clearly nor the spokesperson needed for the critics.
>> Your notes are those of a person who wants to fiddle while he burns
>> Rome. What is needed in my not so humble opinion is a spokesperson
>> for the critics who is not perceived as full of animus.
>>
>> Bob
>> N4HY LM
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rocky Jones <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>>
>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47
>> To: <mlunday@xx.xx.xxx>; <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>; <bill@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Cc: <rswart1@xxxxx.xx.xxx>; Amsat BB<amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts
>>> off. What
>>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some,
>>> anyway) have
>>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided by
>>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that
>>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
>> Mark.
>>
>> "level of performance".
>>
>> No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to
>> equal the work through put of a paid employee...
>>
>> For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can
>> get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is
>> expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
>>
>> But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the
>> tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into
>> the pulpit in the first place.
>>
>> It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who
>> professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is
>> on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to
>> meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
>>
>> No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
>>
>> Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak links
>> and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit
>> more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other
>> reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are
>> well understood.
>>
>> Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so
>> complicated that they missed their free launch.
>>
>> I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad
>> management.
>>
>> That reality seems to bite some folks
>>
>> Robert WB5MZO
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
>> author.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:21:43 -0700
>> From: Dale Hershberger <daleh@xxxxxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>> To: Rocky Jones <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>, amsat bbs <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Cc: amsat bbs <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Message-ID: <4AAC1EF7.7070307@xxxxxx.xxx>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Rocky Jones wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts
>>>> off. What
>>>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some,
>>>> anyway) have
>>>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be provided
>>>> by
>>>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that
>>>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
>>>>
>>> Mark.
>>>
>>> "level of performance".
>>>
>>> No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to
>>> equal the work through put of a paid employee...
>>>
>>> For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool can
>>> get into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is
>>> expected to have three sermons a week ready to go...
>>>
>>> But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in the
>>> tools being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into
>>> the pulpit in the first place.
>>>
>>> It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who
>>> professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is
>>> on...but for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to
>>> meet a minimium level of competency and demonstrate that.
>>>
>>> No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
>>>
>>> Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak
>>> links and then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a
>>> bit more "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no
>>> other reason to make sure that the methods that defeat the failure
>>> are well understood.
>>>
>>> Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so
>>> complicated that they missed their free launch.
>>>
>>> I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is
>>> bad management.
>>>
>>> That reality seems to bite some folks
>>>
>>> Robert WB5MZO
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
>>> author.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>
>>>
>> I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in light
>> of
>> the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member of
>> AMSAT and
>> proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read
>> Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look
>> for
>> the weak points and focus
>> on the corrections that can be made.
>>
>> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or
>> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
>> Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
>>
>> If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal
>> directly with them.
>> The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then
>> degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of
>> AMSAT.
>> We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good
>> information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed
>> to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where
>> it
>> turns others off.
>>
>> I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
>>
>> Dale - KL7XJ
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 20:17:45 -0500
>> From: Rocky Jones <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>> To: <daleh@xxxxxx.xxx>, Amsat BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Message-ID: <COL106-W58B6A2252EABA4D1398E82D6E50@xxx.xxx>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or
>> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
>>
>> Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
>>
>>
>>
>> If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal
>> directly with them.
>>
>> The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then
>> degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of
>> AMSAT.
>>
>> We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good
>> information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed
>>
>> to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point where
>> it
>> turns others off.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
>>
>>
>>
>> Dale - KL7XJ
>>
>> Dale. Pointing out errors in performance that are consistent is not
>> bashing...and it doesnt matter if they are volunteers or paid staff.
>>
>> If they cannot deal with responsible criticism, and oddly enough no
>> one has refuted the statement I made that 1) they missed a launch
>> date and 2) in large measure because they bit off to large a
>> project...
>>
>> instead all one gets is "wow I am upset because you are pointing out
>> flaws in my performance, I am a volunteer I work 16-18 hours a day
>> and wow this is space".
>>
>> No one is calling them stupid, indeed the only people who have blown
>> their corks are those who dont have answers to reasonable questions.
>>
>> Robert WB5MZO
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 11
>> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 02:12:41 +0000
>> From: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF <nigel@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>> To: Amsat BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Message-ID: <4AAC5519.0@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>>
>> It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/
>> administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless
>> bitching.
>>
>> Rocky Jones wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or
>>> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 12
>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:15:17 -0400
>> From: Kevin Smith <kevin.j.smith@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>> To: Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF <nigel@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Cc: Amsat BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Message-ID: <69F07AEC-DA3D-43E9-B5C9-49DE5AFB8C6D@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>
>> Failing that can we at least stop feeding this troll.
>>
>> Kevin Smith
>> N3HKQ
>>
>> On Sep 12, 2009, at 10:12 PM, Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF <nigel@xxxxx.xxx>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It amazes me that this group does not have an owner/moderator/
>>> administrator to stop/delete/kill all this worthless
>>> bitching.
>>>
>>> Rocky Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or
>>>> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
>>> author.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 13
>> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:41:32 -0500
>> From: Rocky Jones <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>> To: <rwmcgwier@xxxxx.xxx>, <amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx>,
>> <mlunday@xx.xx.xxx>, <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>, <bill@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Cc: rswart1@xxxxx.xx.xxxx Amsat BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Message-ID: <COL106-W355AA9617CBDC9609F8036D6E50@xxx.xxx>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> We have a free launch just as we have always have. The russians,
>>> as is their right when they have command, decided with all the
>>> equipment modeled people coming up to toss all orlan suits without
>>> notice to us (and they owed us nothing).
>>>
>> Bob. I am told by people at JSC that this is not an accurate
>> statement.
>>
>> Robert WB5MZO
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Bing brings you health info from trusted sources.
>>
http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHE
INA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 14
>> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:19:04 +1000
>> From: "Andrew Rich" <vk4tec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>> To: "Dale Hershberger" <daleh@xxxxxx.xxx>, "Rocky Jones"
>> <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>, "amsat bbs" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Cc: amsat bbs <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Message-ID: <670D13D572204184BDA77DF2B146F0A0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> http://php.opensourcecms.com/scripts/show.php?catid=all&cat=All%20Scripts
>>
>> CMS - kewl
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Andrew Rich
>> Airways Technical Officer Grade 4
>> Surveillance - RADAR ADS-B
>> Amateur Radio Callsign VK4TEC
>> email: vk4tec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
>> web: www.tech-software.net
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dale Hershberger" <daleh@xxxxxx.xxx>
>> To: "Rocky Jones" <orbitjet@xxxxxxx.xxx>; "amsat bbs" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
>> Cc: "amsat bbs" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:21 AM
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Volunteered
>>
>>
>>> Rocky Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Noone is questioning whether the volunteers worked their butts off.
>>>>> What
>>>>> we're talking about is that the AMSAT community (at least some,
>>>>> anyway)
>>>>> have
>>>>> an expectation of performance equivalent to what would be
>>>>> provided by
>>>>> full-time paid staff. Well, as long as it's volunteers only, that
>>>>> expectation is not reasonable (IMHO).
>>>>>
>>>> Mark.
>>>>
>>>> "level of performance".
>>>>
>>>> No one at least in their right mind would expect a "volunteer" to
>>>> equal
>>>> the work through put of a paid employee...
>>>>
>>>> For example..in The Church of Christ (where I worship) any fool
>>>> can get
>>>> into the pulpit and preach...and the other hand the preacher is
>>>> expected
>>>> to have three sermons a week ready to go...
>>>>
>>>> But the volunteers need to have similar levels of competency in
>>>> the tools
>>>> being used as the Preacher or they should not be allowed into the
>>>> pulpit
>>>> in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> It is like tower climbing...I dont do it as fastl as the folks who
>>>> professionally climb the 1000 footer that our clubs machine is
>>>> on...but
>>>> for the team that does it to get on the tower...we had to meet a
>>>> minimium
>>>> level of competency and demonstrate that.
>>>>
>>>> No matter how it is spun suitsat 1 was a failure.
>>>>
>>>> Good engineering standards would dictate figuring out the weak
>>>> links and
>>>> then correcting them trying something that perhaps was a bit more
>>>> "sophisticated" but not all that much more...if for no other
>>>> reason to
>>>> make sure that the methods that defeat the failure are well
>>>> understood.
>>>>
>>>> Instead what happened is that the "team" put together a project so
>>>> complicated that they missed their free launch.
>>>>
>>>> I dont care how good the engineering is to miss a free launch is bad
>>>> management.
>>>>
>>>> That reality seems to bite some folks
>>>>
>>>> Robert WB5MZO
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
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>>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
>>>> author.
>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>> program!
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>>>>
>>>>
>>> I really want to reply in good faith. It is very difficult in
>>> light of
>>> the nature the tone of the way this thread is going. I am a member
>>> of
>>> AMSAT and
>>> proud of it. The organization is made up of volunteers.....Read
>>> Volunteers! Things will go wrong.. When we have problems we look
>>> for
>>> the weak points and focus
>>> on the corrections that can be made.
>>>
>>> What I do not understand is the persistent bashing of the BOD or
>>> managers of this non profit volunteer corporation. We are not the
>>> Boeing, Lockheed or the USAF.
>>>
>>> If something is not going your way contact a board member and deal
>>> directly with them.
>>> The way this thread is going it is accomplishing nothing more then
>>> degrading or demeaning the volunteer and contributing members of
>>> AMSAT.
>>> We have a lot of folks on this bb that have a lot of very good
>>> information to contribute to all. I just am really disappointed
>>> to see some very talented folks carry this thread to the point
>>> where it
>>> turns others off.
>>>
>>> I do not expect a reply to this. I just wanted to express my opinion
>>>
>>> Dale - KL7XJ
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
>>> author.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the
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>> Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
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>>
>>
>> End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 464
>> ****************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 4, Issue 465
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